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Some Dive Instruction questions.


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#1 CrackerJackScuba

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 04:07 AM

I understand that dive shops offer instruction as a loss leader to help sell dive gear and vice versa offering subsided dive gear to help sell instruction. Doesn't this force class sizes up and quality of instruction down? What about the pressures that this puts on other dive shops in the area or even on private instructors?

#2 ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 08:47 AM

This was why I taught independently and charged more. Some things are worth the extra price.
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#3 Diverbrian

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 12:00 PM

Dude,

You are describing what drives me nuts about the industry.

I'll save the rant for other boards and other times, but I will say that unless things change, I have no intention of becoming an instructor for the reasons that you describe. I'll stay on the cheaper side of things as a DiveCon where I only lose my renewal money every year and watch other instructors complain about the way things are going.

You have just described the reason that many good instructors won't stay in the industry.
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#4 WreckWench

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 01:54 PM

Excellent question. So what does the industry do about this and what do we as divers do about this?

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#5 ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 04:38 PM

One of the main reasons I stopped instructing was because it did not make fiancial sense (or cents) any longer. After one class I did, I figured that I made less than $3 per hour. Rather than make my classes more profitable by cutting down on the learning, I returned to diving for myself. Lord knows almost nobody was willing to pay for "real" instruction when they could just go down the block for the $99 special "learn to dive in a few days cheap" course offered by most dive shops.

Again, my suggestion is to lengthen the class to include what is now: Skindiving/Free Diving, Scuba Diver, Advanced, Rescue, DAN, First Aid and CPR. Charge a meaningful fee and provide meaningful instruction. Better to have less divers but ones that are not a hazard to everyone in the water. Better not to have instructors that never have been in the water, and then go from that to instructor in a couple of months. Better that there are less shops but the ones that are there make an honest profit and provide real service. Let the boat captains charge more per head but take us to new spots where there will be quality dives.

:lmao:
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#6 6Gill

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 07:23 PM

As long as LDS/resorts can get newly certified instuctors to work for almost nothing why will they pay more for an experianced instuctor.Most of the shops I know off pay a flat rate per student and this is pretty low to begin with. Compare what the hourly cost to you is for a class and then check out what it cost to take snowboarding,golf,cooking classes.On a per hour cost people don't blink at the cost as there is a percived value.
Most scuba store have no idea of the actual cost of running a class and off set the cost by under pay staff(thus high turn over) increace cost of stuff and fear monger that to shop else where is bad and sell specialty(fluff) courses with high mark up low overhead.
As people move more into technical diving I see more research going into choosing an instuctor and cost is not the primary concern farther the value one recives.
The cheapest price is not always the best deal.To improve the overall state of scuba as a sport and a quality industry...the educated consumer always works in favor of quality.

Eric

#7 Twinklez

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 07:31 PM

As long as LDS/resorts can get newly certified instuctors to work for almost nothing why will they pay more for an experianced instuctor.Most of the shops I know off pay a flat rate per student and this is pretty low to begin with. Compare what the hourly cost to you is for a class and then check out what it cost to take snowboarding,golf,cooking classes.On a per hour cost people don't blink at the cost as there is a percived value.
Most scuba store have no idea of the actual cost of running a class and off set the cost by under pay staff(thus high turn over) increace cost of stuff and fear monger that to shop else where is bad and sell specialty(fluff) courses with high mark up low overhead.
As people move more into technical diving I see more research going into choosing an instuctor and cost is not the primary concern farther the value one recives.
The cheapest price is not always the best deal.To improve the overall state of scuba as a sport and a quality industry...the educated consumer always works in favor of quality.

Eric

Ok, here's where we need an emoticon that's clapping his hands... I totally agree!

#8 captsteve

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 08:57 PM

i could never be an instructor for those wages........

#9 finGrabber

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 08:58 PM

As people move more into technical diving I see more research going into choosing an instuctor and cost is not the primary concern farther the value one recives.
The cheapest price is not always the best deal.To improve the overall state of scuba as a sport and a quality industry...the educated consumer always works in favor of quality.

Eric


Ok, here is my issue with this; when I started researching scuba, I read SB and other sites; everyone says "its the instructor, not the agency" but as someone who didn't know anyone who was a diver, how can we possibly expect people to find the instructor best for them? I knew NO ONE who dove; of course, now I know lots of hardcore divers who will tell me exactly what they think

but, how can we educate people who are wanting to learn why one instructor is better than the other? most people go into OW pretty blind about the instruction they will get and why one instructor is better than the other, why one shop is better than the other, etc, they just don't know!

we can't expect people to pay for quality instruction if they don't know what they are paying for; yes, we can blame Joe Schmoe down the street, but really, we need to educate the public better

#10 Twinklez

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 09:39 PM

Aside from those that have booked a tropical vacation and want to dive during that time, many students hear about diving from a friend or family member. In the vacation situation, most simply shop around for the most economical price. In the latter situation, the student often chooses his or her instructor based on recommendation of the person that exposed them to SCUBA to begin with.

I'm not sure how to reach those that book based on price, except to say that it falls on the LDS at the time they're being shopped to sell the basis for their pricing and the quality of their instruction without slamming competitors. That's a hard task.

Then there's a third group made of those that always wanted to...they'll most likely fall into the same shopping category as the vacationers. And a fourth group of those that saw a dive flag sticker on someone's vehicle, or saw someone going to class with their gear, or saw a trash clean up, a Discover event at a school, or something like that. Aside from the Discover event, which falls back on the dive shop conducting the event, the information provided by the diver often determines how a prospective new diver will go about shopping for an instructor.

So the question to start with is "What brought you to SCUBA?" Once you know that, then you'll have some idea of where and how to reach each segment of the market with information aimed at making the best choice for an instructor based on quality and experience.

#11 annasea

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 10:07 PM

As people move more into technical diving I see more research going into choosing an instuctor and cost is not the primary concern farther the value one recives.
The cheapest price is not always the best deal.To improve the overall state of scuba as a sport and a quality industry...the educated consumer always works in favor of quality.

Eric

Ok, here is my issue with this; when I started researching scuba, I read SB and other sites; everyone says "its the instructor, not the agency" but as someone who didn't know anyone who was a diver, how can we possibly expect people to find the instructor best for them? I knew NO ONE who dove; of course, now I know lots of hardcore divers who will tell me exactly what they think

but, how can we educate people who are wanting to learn why one instructor is better than the other? most people go into OW pretty blind about the instruction they will get and why one instructor is better than the other, why one shop is better than the other, etc, they just don't know!

we can't expect people to pay for quality instruction if they don't know what they are paying for; yes, we can blame Joe Schmoe down the street, but really, we need to educate the public better


I agree it's extremely difficult finding a good instructor when first starting out. Even armed with a list of questions from SD, I still made a bad choice... for me. I think what's best is to go with a recommendation from someone you trust who dives regularly (and safely). Unfortunately, I knew no such person at the time I was looking. :bye:










#12 Twinklez

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 10:29 PM

I agree it's extremely difficult finding a good instructor when first starting out. Even armed with a list of questions from SD, I still made a bad choice... for me. I think what's best is to go with a recommendation from someone you trust who dives regularly (and safely). Unfortunately, I knew no such person at the time I was looking. :bye:

I think it's also important to know the special needs or concerns of the person you're referring. I know more than one instructor, and I usually share information about more than one of them because I know that different people have different needs.

If I weren't so stubborn and determined, I might never have made it through my OW class. The instructor I signed up with was aware that I couldn't swim underwater and had little other swimming skills; but instead of teaching the class he decided to let his two new instructors team teach it. The first day in the pool, when we're all lined up to do our basic swimming test and I was second in line, there was absolutely no mercy and no advice, guidance or anything. Just "Go!" I made the 25 feet coming up for air once, and then turning my back upon surfacing so no one could see me coughing and sputtering with snot running out of my nose from all the water that went up it and all the water I swallowed trying to do something I knew not how to do. I wanted to cry. I wanted to get out of the pool! Stubborn brat that I am, I didn't. I'm glad I didn't. But damn was I miserable without the guidance I was lead to believe I would have.

#13 finGrabber

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 10:29 PM

As people move more into technical diving I see more research going into choosing an instuctor and cost is not the primary concern farther the value one recives.
The cheapest price is not always the best deal.To improve the overall state of scuba as a sport and a quality industry...the educated consumer always works in favor of quality.

Eric

Ok, here is my issue with this; when I started researching scuba, I read SB and other sites; everyone says "its the instructor, not the agency" but as someone who didn't know anyone who was a diver, how can we possibly expect people to find the instructor best for them? I knew NO ONE who dove; of course, now I know lots of hardcore divers who will tell me exactly what they think

but, how can we educate people who are wanting to learn why one instructor is better than the other? most people go into OW pretty blind about the instruction they will get and why one instructor is better than the other, why one shop is better than the other, etc, they just don't know!

we can't expect people to pay for quality instruction if they don't know what they are paying for; yes, we can blame Joe Schmoe down the street, but really, we need to educate the public better


I agree it's extremely difficult finding a good instructor when first starting out. Even armed with a list of questions from SD, I still made a bad choice... for me. I think what's best is to go with a recommendation from someone you trust who dives regularly (and safely). Unfortunately, I knew no such person at the time I was looking. :bye:


I didn't either, annasea; I just happened to get lucky and was very comfortable in the water anyway

#14 ereediver

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 10:31 AM

I am not opposed to anyone making money at the job they do. That is what America is all about. However, I also want to get the most for my money. Like what was said before, I had no idea what was good, bad or worse in Scuba instruction. It wasn’t until after I got in to the classes that I found that there more options on how and wear you could get certified. I also did not want to drive and hour or more to get to the classes. As it was the class was close by and convenient, for me at least, I also paid over $500 dollars with classes and equipment just to get to Open Water. I have no idea water the instructors made, though their comments were the same, they don’t make squat, they did it for the diving. If they added more material it would again be the instructors that got the short end. If they charged more, I probably would not be here known. Since open water, I have purchase over $1000 dollars worth of equipment, plus further education. So I guess that is the catch. Take the quick hit and hope you keep more of the folks who try it, or go only after the die hards. It seems to me that even now only half of those who go through Open water cert. stay with the sport. In my opinion the people that are involved, the more research and development will go into making the sport safer, accessible, and cheaper.
So now you need to keep the instructor core happy. My suggestion would be to let the farm the later stages of instruction. Let the shops work the Open water portion, but after that let the instructors make themselves available for more one on one as the student get more technical. Have the shops refer prospective students to instructors rather then employ then, That way the instructor market can help itself, the shops still have there customer market, and they can watchdog each other to keep things honest

#15 intotheblue

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 12:07 PM

I think it's also important to know the special needs or concerns of the person you're referring. I know more than one instructor, and I usually share information about more than one of them because I know that different people have different needs.

If I weren't so stubborn and determined, I might never have made it through my OW class. The instructor I signed up with was aware that I couldn't swim underwater and had little other swimming skills; but instead of teaching the class he decided to let his two new instructors team teach it. The first day in the pool, when we're all lined up to do our basic swimming test and I was second in line, there was absolutely no mercy and no advice, guidance or anything. Just "Go!" I made the 25 feet coming up for air once, and then turning my back upon surfacing so no one could see me coughing and sputtering with snot running out of my nose from all the water that went up it and all the water I swallowed trying to do something I knew not how to do. I wanted to cry. I wanted to get out of the pool! Stubborn brat that I am, I didn't. I'm glad I didn't. But damn was I miserable without the guidance I was lead to believe I would have.


So... did you ever learn how to swim? I have had people that could not swim and could barely swim. It's a fine line the closer you get between "barely swim" and swim.... but I have sent people to get their money back and go seek swimming lessons before continuing with diving. When I was the one "selling" SCUBA, I made sure to "pre-qualify" in every respect the prospective student. Then none of us have a big surprise.

As for quality and pricing... as long as we have instructors that say "I just teach because I love to share diving" or "I just teach my friends" or something else like that... you will have instructors that teach courses for too little. Hey, I loved to teach new people to dive too, but I also feel I should be adequately compensated for what I really bring to the table as an instructor. I taught often as an independent and as such marketed my classes as "value added" and then I proceeded to "ADD VALUE".

Funny (sad) thing is that I have friends that referred friends that made 3X my regular income, and they would balk when I suggested they pay me a reasonable fee for instruction, even a private class. I didn't lose sleep over it, and I quit giving instruction away long ago, even long before I quit teaching. People that pay little for something value it very little, and the work load actually goes up for the instructor when the student has so little at stake in the deal. I can't justify the time away from other important things in my life for so little compensation. New and young ignorant instructors will also keep the "wages" low. Most shops want "young, dumb, etc...." people that will put up with hard work, long hours, low wages, etc. and that have no personal responsibilities so they can get as much out of them as possible. When they get "wise" to the "lay of the land", they either quit or are asked to move along, and the next sucker lines up. :lmao:

The best thing we as divers can do, is promote diving, and refer our friends when they show interest to quality instructors that don't "give away" their training. Then your friends will VALUE diving, and become better divers that you are happy to dive with.

Well, put my soap box away again... :flirt:
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