19 replies to this topic

[netmage]

I have a strong suspicion who the instructor was, and who a number of the folks your referring to; as I have witnessed the same practices.

Given who YOUR CCR instructor was and witnessed the 'abilities' of the students this instructor is churning out - why is he still an instructor...?

If we don't empty our own garbage, the garbage stays, and ultimately the stink rubs off on everyone of us.

I agree - I'm inferring the CEO of IANTD was present and witnessed this spectacle. I'd be curious to know his impressions of the divers abilities.

[PerroneFord]

Since Instructor certification is a lifetime card, with no verification of continuing education, or re-testing of specific instructor knowledge by the certifying agency, an instructor can churn out as many pupils as his wallet can stand.

In another post, I said that every type of instructor certification should have an expiration date, with mandatory re-certification, especially when any type of high risk dive instruction is being provided.

To my knowledge, GUE is the ony agency that requires instructors to re-cert, and pass their physical as well as diving tests. It's unfortunate more agencies don't do this.

[peterbj7]

Depressingly common. I remember one dive (sort of rec-tec, as are most dives in Britain) where there was a honking current, and two idiots had pulled the float at the top of the ascent line down to 20 metres - that's 70 feet. Just as in the scenario above they didn't seem to know what to do about it.

It's a pity we can't get the "survival of the fittest" law rigidly applied. Then we'd gradually get rid of these divers (!).

[Cephalopod]

Depressingly common. I remember one dive (sort of rec-tec, as are most dives in Britain) where there was a honking current, and two idiots had pulled the float at the top of the ascent line down to 20 metres - that's 70 feet. Just as in the scenario above they didn't seem to know what to do about it.

It's a pity we can't get the "survival of the fittest" law rigidly applied. Then we'd gradually get rid of these divers (!).

Its interesting to note in the post below, that most of the students were some level of instructor trying to improve their skills. Any new instructors should take careful heed of ScubaDadMiami's remarks. That instructor's card gives no special dispensation from the laws of physics. You are just as vulnerable as any beginner to making potentially fatal errors on a dive gone bad.

He makes one very important point that bears repeating..."For those of you that are instructors, you place yourselves in this same risk position everytime that you teach more than one student per class without a one-to-one student-teacher ratio."

Is a one to one ratio practical? No. It's cost prohibitive. Let's face it, when you pay your fee for a class in this sport, you accept certain risks, you take your chances with everyone else. The certifying agencies feel a one to six ratio is an acceptable risk. If you don't want that risk, then be prepared to pay a sizeable premium for a "private" class, one on one. Most students can't afford that.

I've encountered multi-student "events" a few times. Most of us have. Consider, an OW class, after the required skill exercises, a required and simple dive tour of the surrounding area near the platform. Hey, six students, three very promising buddy pairs...what could possibly go wrong that I wasn't trained and experienced enough to handle?

I watched in complete disbelief, and helplessness, as my class followed me into a totally unexpected wall of "black water".

Everything, and everybody, disappeared in two seconds. Being in 30 feet of fresh water, with dim and limited viz to begin with, there was no warning. Two kick cycles and everything went completely black. My imagination went wild as I envisioned panic stricken divers shooting to the surface, getting lost, getting disoriented, oh god....that was terrible! I grabbed the two students immediately behind me, actually they swam right into me, but the other four people were gone gone gone! I got my two to the surface, and back down I went. Even my HID dive light couldn't penetrate the muck...five minutes of complete terror. However, when I surfaced, everyone had made it up safely, and followed correct ascent procedures.

Was a mistake made? Not per agency policies and procedures. I was within specified limits, conditions were as good as they ever were in fresh water, at 30 feet, dim, cold, murky. And the students needed to go to 40 feet for basic OW certification.

Next time I made sure at least one DM, and two if possible, was present at each class. For tours, a pro in lead, one midway if possible, one, for sure, trailing. A lesson hard learned, and one not normally taught. Like many instructors, I thought I was in complete control...then I learned we are never in complete control. We just think we are, until nature scares the living Sh..t out of us! The certifying agency can't foresee every possible contingency you will encounter, but enough teaching experience certainly will!

It dosen't have to be anyone's fault...or anybody's mistake...its just the nature of Nature! Steve Irwin is a tragic, but classic example...sometimes, underwater, things suddenly go terribly wrong, period. If Steve had been two inches over, in any direction, left, right, up, down...it could have been a survivable event, and remarkable footage for his shows, which I always watched.

Instead, his last minute on this earth was educational to all divers about the unpredictability of the world we live in, and swim under.

"Ceph"

Edited by Cephalopod, 06 September 2006 - 10:38 PM.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I have no reason to fault my instructor for what went on at all, and if I gave the impression that he was a cause for this incident in any way, I want to make sure that I clear this up from the outset.

In fact, when I drifted away from the float ball, waving good bye, my instructor was there in the crowd, still attempting to instruct everyone to shoot lift bags. His choices at that moment were to either drift off with me, when I clearly was not the one in trouble, or to stay behind with the group to try to resolve their situation given that they were depleting their gas and potentially racking up longer deco by remaining at depth. He acknowledged my signal, and that was the last thing that I saw as I turned my focus to shooting my lift bag to complete my decompression.

For those of you that are instructors, you place yourselves in this same risk position everytime that you teach more than one student per class without a one-to-one student-teacher ratio. You can encourage groups to stay together in teams and the like, but there is always the chance of separation and having to make a decision as to what to do when this happens. Personally, I am a big believer in using AIs, DMs and the equivalents to minimize this risk (and I hold the highest esteem for these staff members as part of the training team in general). However, this is not required so long as the group does not exceed the maximum established in an agency's Standards.

I can't directly say what happened after I left the float ball because I did not see what happened, and I did not raise more of a fuss aboard the boat in case one of the people involved in the incident started to have DCS symptoms; I did not want someone to start covering and minimizing things to avoid a further scene. My decision was to get to the bottom of this happening after the dive outing so that I could find out more about the missing gap of time after I was out of the picture. (I should know more about things at my next meeting with my instructor. Trust me, I will be asking a lot of questions, and I will offer some frank opinions, whether invited or not, about some of what I saw going on--on the part of the students involved.)

Later, when everyone was back on the boat for a while, I saw (but did not hear) the instructor talking to this group on another deck of the dive boat. This would seem consistent with him giving "instruction" based upon what happened during the dive. I am suspecting that I was not invited to participate in this discussion for a reason, and it would make sense that I would not be involved in this discussion especially if it involved some serious "evaluation" of what the instructor observed on the dive.

I can also say that the instructor went with this group for a post-dive briefing when we got back to the dock. I was told that my attendance at this function was optional since what was to be discussed did not pertain to me and my experiences on these outings. So, I can't say what went on during these discussions since I was not there. You are welcome to connect the dots, speculating on this if you wish. I am just saying what I personally observed.

Speaking of debriefing students, I did have the chance to observe the evaluations and debriefings of two of the divers the week before. I saw nothing lacking on the part of the instructor there.

Now, as far as the credentials of the "students" in the class is concerned, I believe that all the people in the group were already instructors of one level or another, and they were working toward varying levels of technical instructor and/or Trimix related certifications. So, this would lead me to think that they must have all had some kind of significant experience before entering this class. I can't say much about this since I didn't engage in the kind of discussion with each that I would with a student proposing to enter training with me, and I did not have access to the information that each provided for matriculation into this training class.

The week before, I was with the same group when we dove to about 120+. So, this dive was consistent with the progression of depth inasmuch as the maximum depth on this wreck was 155. (I only hit about 145 or so during the dive.) The week before, the current was just about as strong on the first dive. So, I saw no reason to think that the students were not experienced in diving in these conditions.

During the prior week's dives, I observed everyone doing the kinds of skills (including shooting lift bags) that they should have employed in a dive like this in the event that things did not go according to plan. From my observations, nothing was lacking in the dive outings on the part of the instructor, and contingencies such as this were covered.

My instructor: none other than Tom Mount. I just don't keep "bragging" about how lucky I am to train with someone whom many would consider (and whom I certainly consider) one of the top divers ever to exist. So, I am not hiding anything here. It is more like restraint.

I will be very proud to have accomplished what I am setting out to do here under Tom's instruction. I am a very lucky man, and I am quite aware of the gift that I am receiving. Mere words are not enough to describe the leaps and bounds of critical lifesaving experience I am absorbing during my training.