25 replies to this topic

[Boatlawyer]

Wow, I'm noticing a lot of people who pay off/ loan b/f or g/f money, and can't for the life of me figure out why.

Now, there are plenty of things my erstwhile b/f does for me, in fact he's always coming up with something new, cooking, taking out trash sua sponte, oiling the roof fan, always planning fun things to do, and Lord knows he looks after my badunka-dunk. And he really fusses over me, but, there is just NO WAY I would ask for or accept money from him to pay my debts. And likewise, I am crazy about him, but not only would I NOT loan him money, I would probably have to review the entire state of the union if he ASKED me.

So, what gives? Am I in the minority?

[WreckWench]

I think when someone is in love...they will do whatever it takes to move the world for the one they love. Like you said some of it may be the natural male tendency to 'care, protect & provide', some may be the 'damsel in distress' syndrome but people tend to do extraordinary things for people that they are in love with.

Also it helps if you have secure jobs and aren't struggling with a lot of debt etc. And more and more people do have debt of some form or other. Or they are barely getting by. This creates a position of vuneralbility.

Heck look at me...I have debt and I'm barely getting by. But I also intend to have a prenup to prevent my new fiance from bearing any of that. But it certainly doesn't stop him from trying to spend every penny he has on me. Why? Because he is in love. And if he thinks it will help he will spend it.

Fortunately his trust is well placed in me. And if I did ever borrow any money it would be in writing. But I would bet you that it would not at his insistence but at mine. Good men are like that.

[annasea]

I am in complete agreement with you, Theresa, in regards to borrowing from others. As for lending money, I find it far more easy to do than borrow... if I offer first rather than am asked first.

[Boatlawyer]

I think when someone is in love...they will do whatever it takes to move the world for the one they love. Like you said some of it may be the natural male tendency to 'care, protect & provide', some may be the 'damsel in distress' syndrome but people tend to do extraordinary things for people that they are in love with.

Also it helps if you have secure jobs and aren't struggling with a lot of debt etc. And more and more people do have debt of some form or other. Or they are barely getting by. This creates a position of vuneralbility.

Heck look at me...I have debt and I'm barely getting by. But I also intend to have a prenup to prevent my new fiance from bearing any of that. But it certainly doesn't stop him from trying to spend every penny he has on me. Why? Because he is in love. And if he thinks it will help he will spend it.

Fortunately his trust is well placed in me. And if I did ever borrow any money it would be in writing. But I would bet you that it would not at his insistence but at mine. Good men are like that.

I guess I'm a little skeptical. It makes all kinds of sense for a man to want to provide for present needs, but paying off past debts? I have more debt than Madame Bovary, but still, no way I'd look to someone else to bail me out. Love or no love.

[Terri]

Wow, I'm noticing a lot of people who pay off/ loan b/f or g/f money, and can't for the life of me figure out why.

Now, there are plenty of things my erstwhile b/f does for me, in fact he's always coming up with something new, cooking, taking out trash sua sponte, oiling the roof fan, always planning fun things to do, and Lord knows he looks after my badunka-dunk. And he really fusses over me, but, there is just NO WAY I would ask for or accept money from him to pay my debts. And likewise, I am crazy about him, but not only would I NOT loan him money, I would probably have to review the entire state of the union if he ASKED me.

So, what gives? Am I in the minority?

Nope, I agree with you completely. I wouldn't dream of assuming ANYONE should be responsible for my debt except me...regardless of b/f, friend, family, anyone! And the same would go for any future b/f. If he were in some kind of debt, I would certainly emotionally support him in getting out of that debt...but that would be it.

[WreckWench]

I guess I'm a little skeptical. It makes all kinds of sense for a man to want to provide for present needs, but paying off past debts? I have more debt than Madame Bovary, but still, no way I'd look to someone else to bail me out. Love or no love.

It kind of depends on how much past debt and how critical the situation is...i.e. will she lose her home, have the car repo'd etc.

And yes...men who think with their hearts first will overlook all common sense things when they are in love. You have a level of trust that just doesn't appropriately require the brain to function in a manner it would normally function in.

[drbill]

Well, I don't ask for money and have no real debt (fortunately net worth is quite positive... on paper!). And for me to loan anything to my future love (other than my support), I'd have to have it first.

[jholley309]

It kind of depends on how much past debt and how critical the situation is...i.e. will she lose her home, have the car repo'd etc.

Not to sound cold and heartless (especially after starting a Nice Guy thread... ), but I personally think that even such a critical situation as you describe is still not cause for going that deep financially. I think I'd offer a a place to crash or a ride until she got it figured out and got back on her feet, but stop short of assuming responsibility (good word, Terri!) for any of her financial burden. Stock brokers call that "throwing good money after bad".

And yes...men who think with their hearts first will overlook all common sense things when they are in love. You have a level of trust that just doesn't appropriately require the brain to function in a manner it would normally function in.

True, but I would hope those guys would have at least one friend or family member who waves a big, yellow caution flag and marshalls them in behind the pace car, so to speak.

Like Terri said, the bottom line is who's responsible for running up the debt in the first place. I'm a big believer in freewill, and along with freewill comes responsibility for consequences. Our destiny is ultimately determined by the choices we make.

Now, if the guy has sackfuls of money lying around and is looking for a good charity to toss some money into, then by all means he should help out and wipe her slate clean. But he should do so expecting to never, ever see that money ever again or get compensated for his generosity in any way. Unfortunately, guys like me just don't have those sackfuls of money lying around (pity...), so bailing someone else out of a predicament they put themselves into means adding to our own burden, often to the detriment of our own financial security. I sure as heck wouldn't do that for anyone I didn't know or like well enough to be married to, and then only after actually getting married when their financial situation is for all intents and purposes part of my situation anyway.

Unless she was willing to be my personal chef, valet, and maid until her debt was resolved... Oh, and she'd have to be smokin' hot, too...

(Kidding. Partially.)

Cheers!

Jim

[Moose]

Well, speaking as a guy that has been there. I have no problem paying off debt if I feel the relationship is going somewhere. In fact, it's hard to have a relationship with that kind of tension between it.
Think about dating someone that has debt and here you are sitting pretty with cash to spare. Most of the women I meet don't have much money for one reason or another. It's even worst if they came out of a divorce with no credit and have been trying to forge a new life for the past couple of years.

It’s easier to pay off the debt (I don't have sackfulls of cash, I use briefcases!), and then move forward from there.
While I can say that no one has repaid their debt to me (in cash), I don't think that I would ever change what I did. I know that I have seriously helped at least 3 women, turn their lives around. While my relationship with them may have ended, I know that they are better off for what I did. Again, I don't "loan" money, I only give it to them. So I don't consider the situation as I'm being taken advantage of. I offer the help. I have had women refuse and that's fine. But I could never comfortably be in a relationship where my partner is struggling to pay bills and then have her feel that she is free loading every time we go places and I pay for everything. (Each time I cleared their debt, they were able to get a hold of their spending and start to save some money. Once in a while they enjoyed the ability to treat me to dinner or something.) I gave them a sense of pride and self worth that they might not have found elsewhere. To me, that is worth more than a pile of gold!

Now, please note, I don't just pick up a girl off the street and hand over my wallet. These are women that I can truly say had something in their lives to get them into that situation. i.e. divorce, medical issues, parents to care for, etc.

It could be considered a form of "local" charity at worst. At best, it is the thought that I know that I can give, without any expectation of getting back. True happiness isn’t how much money you have, or what you’re worth. It’s what you do with it and how you are! Measure wealth not by the things you have, but by the things that you have for which you would not take money.

[cmt489]

I agree with Boatlawyer and Terri on this one. The only time I think it is appropriate to provide or accept assistance with debt is when you are certain that you are in it together for the long term (i.e. with marriage). Until it is an official partnership, no good can come of it.

[bluedolphin]

I too would never expect a man to pay off any of my debts (fortunately I don't have any, other then my manageable mortgage), however on the flip side if he asked me to help him get out of debt, I think that would be a big red flag to me.

[WreckWench]

I think we are all thinking clearly here and with our heads. This is easy to do when we are not head over heels in love with someone.

When you are and you trust them completely...you just can't fathom that they would take advantage of you. Especially if they are planning a life with you.

Let me see...my last ex moved to Texas to marry me. Lost job that was to start on 9/13 due to 9/11. Had gotten that job via family ties therefore not prepared to do an extensive job search in a tough market like Dallas. Couldn't afford to pay bills on apt he had rented so agreed to let him move in with me. After all he was my fiance right? And he had just moved here for me right? Well guess what? The marriage started the day he moved in and I certainly treated it as such. He apparently did not or more accurately did not see it as that.

More times goes by and he can't find work. He starts to get seriously depressed. About this time I get laid off from the telecom industry. Now we have 2 people looking for work in a very tight market. Money is getting VERY tough and with both of us at home tension is mounting. He has an unexpected emergency so I take money earmarked for the wedding and spend it on him/the emergency. And don't kid yourself into thinking you wouldn't do the same....if you were in love and planning to spend your life with this person.

NOW others on the outside might have been able to see all the warning signs or what they thought were warning signs...others may have realized he was using me...or was on that path as I never believed it was his intention from the start...others may have seen what I could only see WELL AFTER IT WAS ALL OVER WITH but right then and there...I did not see it. He said he loved me and wanted to get married and I believed him.

What I could not predict was how the strain of both of us being unemployed and him relocating etc would take their toll on us. He soon believed the classic...if its this bad now...think how bad it will be when we get married.

So he began to plot his departure. But he was stuck...no place to move and no money to do it with. So unbeknownst to me, his friend from his home state was coming to get him and move him back. They were not going to tell me until the day he showed up. In the meantime I had been pulling strings and found a job for him. My counselor said that a man was more tied to his employement than women and he would have an easier time coming out of his depression if he were employed. Plus he could feel as if he were contributing to the relationship. (I think Moose was alluding to this in his post about allowing his female companions to have the self respect that comes from being out from a crushing load like debt, etc) So I had been putting all my effort into finding HIM a job and not myself. Afterall he said he still wanted to get married but for obvious reasons we had postphoned the wedding since we had to spend the wedding money to survive.

Now he is in a quandry. He wants the job but if he continues with his plan to move he'll jepordize the job. So he figures that the reason we've had problems was the lack of money so if he takes the job and starts making money and no longer feels beholden to me i.e. he can repay me the money he's borrowed, etc then perhaps the relationship will be on the right track again.

However somewhere in the process of getting the job and traveling for a living (a new experience for him) and meeting other fun and exciting people including a gal...he realizes that it is easier to start over then it is to revive our relationship. So now he's got to figure out how's he's going to end this. His good intentions have now gone astray and the exciting good life of expense accounts, exciting new people and women not to mention travel etc has taken hold and having never experienced it before he is very much caught up in the lifestyle. Soon the plan to repay me became intentions to repay me the large sum of money he owed became a good idea and then soon become a figment of everyone's imagination.

So...during counseling my therapist asked if I would trust a man again. At first I said 'no' which is the normal response. Then she got me to see that while I made a number of decisions that later turned out to less than fortunate and some would say prudent...I knew in my heart I had done the right thing. I did what someone truly in love with another would do to help them. I did everything I could even at the expense of myself. Was it wise? In hindsight perhaps not. According my bank account...hell no. But I would hate to think that the next time a person I loved needed me and I could help but I chose not too...well we all make our own decisions. And decisions made while under the influence of love are not always the ones made while under the influence of single sanity.

So did I learn anything? Sure. Talk about such matters with the new person(s) in your life. Don't change yourself but be wiser. Don't allow getting hurt to stop you from taking a risk. Sure its scary but you'll never receive true love if you don't experience some form of true risk...even if that risk is just allowing your heart to care again. And do your homework upfront. If I'd done a better job of 'kicking the tires' and digging into who my ex really was as a person and how he handled light to serious situations...I would have realized that we weren't as compatible as I thought we were. And he would have realized the same saving us both a great deal of pain, wasted time and effort and oh yeah...wasted money.

[drbill]

The woman in the situation I described seems to be seeing the light... a little. She said she'd pay the cell phone bill (mostly her calls anyway) and has a new job and living quarters lined up. Thinks she doesn't want to call off the relationship entirely. Go figure!

[Moose]

The woman in the situation I described seems to be seeing the light... a little. She said she'd pay the cell phone bill (mostly her calls anyway) and has a new job and living quarters lined up. Thinks she doesn't want to call off the relationship entirely. Go figure!

Does this mean you want to end the thread?

If not, here is one of my experiences and maybe it will clear up what I’m trying to say.

A few years back, I met a woman that I found attractive and the sight of me didn’t make her physically ill . After talking with her a while, We agreed to meet again. The next time we met, we had a nice dinner and conversation. During which, she explained to me that she married her high school sweetheart (who was a foreign exchange student) right after they graduated. Shortly after their wedding, it was clear to her that he only got married to get US citizenship. He was now doing drugs, drinking heavily, and didn’t come home for days, (she suspected he was cheating on her.) They lived in a leaky apartment and he charged her rent to stay there, while he had his brother living there rent free. She wished she could leave him, but she was trapped. All she wanted was to go to college and get her degree. She really wanted to better herself, but her husband controlled her through money and other abuse.
Now, after that bomb shell, I was suspicious. But the plan was to meet her friend and her friend’s boyfriend for drinks. When we got there, turns out her friend’s boyfriend was a cop that I used to work with and was friendly with. During the night, I was able to confirm her whole story with him.
So here I was, looking at a person that was truly trapped by a single bad choice she had made.
After the drinks, she didn’t feel comfortable driving home (it was really late, and over an hour away, and she had been drinking.) So I offered her to stay in my spare bedroom. We ended up talking the whole night through. After the sun came up, I made us both breakfast. Then I gave her this option (without her ever asking for something like it.)

“If you want, we’ll go to you apartment, right now, pack up all your stuff, and move you in here. You can stay here in the spare bed room. If you aren’t comfortable, I’ll put you up in one of my apartments. I’ll help you get enrolled in college, help you start the divorce proceedings and get you a car.”

There was a great silence, and then she started to cry. No one in life had ever offered to help her out in such a great way. Of course she agreed. Within a few hours, she was moved in. (Hell of a way to end a first date, eh?)

I helped her get a part time job at a local bank. I got her a second hand car (which I put in her name, so she would feel ‘controlled’ by me.) I bought her a computer. I helped her enroll in college. All this within about 2 months.
Turns out, she really enjoyed working at the bank, and started to look for college majors in that field.

Our romantic relationship didn’t work out and she asked to move in one of my apartments. I agreed. She paid a nominal rent (about 1/3 of its market value.)

Then, while I was away with the Army for a few weeks, I came home to find that she just upped and moved. No good bye, no thank you, no nothing.

Did that hurt, only a little. You see, for me, I knew what I had given her. No one could take that away. The money I spend on her was negligible compare to what she got out of it.

It was if she became my child and now it was her turn to open her wings and fly. I wouldn’t have wanted anything more. If that same situation happened today, I would do it all again.

[WreckWench]

Hey Moose....if things don't work out in my current situation and things don't work out with you and SunshineDiver...wanna hook up?

Ok ok I know this isn't a hook up site but heck...sometimes even a blind squirrel gets lucky right?

But on a serious note...Moose you are spot on. Don't give what you can't afford to give because the chances of getting it back are slim but a blessing if you do.