59 replies to this topic

[shadragon]

Could you explain, in basic terms, what an instructors liability might be if they saw someone 30ft below them heading for the abyss? Do you have a duty to attempt rescue? A duty to inform responsible party, or what? Insurance has to insure against something, and the bounds of that insurance are the dictates of what you are actually liable for.

This is one of my primary fears of becoming an instructor.

This was a concern for me also and I asked the same question. I was told that if you see an unsafe incident (drowning, OOA, crash dive to the abyss, etc.) you should try to intercede only if you can do so without endangering yourself. That goes back to my rescue course where you might have to wait until the wild flailing drowning guy goes unconscious before approaching. Not an easy thing to do, but the alternative means two bodies to be recovered.

If you followed your procedures and training standards for whatever agency you operate under then you should not be able to be held liable. However, carrying insurance is a no-brainer if you are a professional DM or Instructor. Stuff, as they say, inevitably happens.

[shadragon]

this guy wants a DIY project, even if he never uses it what he asked for was your 2 cents on what goes inside, not if he should carry it, use it or need it.
my vote is metal & metal, don't know if you could find brass, I think a thin gauge pipe might rattle louder, the post about one in PVC could have merits for the airport but in checked luggage it shouldn't matter

Thanks PLD... I heard about the PVC version too and also thought metal on metal would work best. I went to the local scrap metal recycler last night and got a 28" length of 3/4" (interior diameter) stainless steel pipe for $4. I am having a local plumbing shop cut it into 5" lengths and threading the ends for end caps. Going to use hex nuts inside and that should work nicely. Will be able to make 5 different shakers out of that pipe. Total cost with all the work and parts will be about $25 so $5 a piece. Will test a couple of different designs and see which works best.

[shadragon]

I don’t understand the legal limits of being a DM on a trip where you are NOT leading the group, but only a participant of a dive. However, I know I’ve seen plenty of DM friends’ only show OW or AOW cert cards when they travel and they never say they are DMs or instructors.

Actually, you do that to avoid having the local staff buddy you up with problem students or the inexperienced on your vacation. Makes their jobs easier if they can spread the load. If you are on vacation you want to dive and relax and not have to do a working holiday, so by just showing the AOW card you avoid that.

[JimG]

I'm not legal expert, even less of an expert in diving related law, however, waivers only serve one real legal purpose. They are a document that you can use later to prove that you spelled out risks and potential hazards before someone engaged in an activity. Thereby limiting (but not eliminating) your liability in a situation.

Correct - it is a type of "informed consent", and can be used to show that the diver understood the risks prior to engaging in the activity. It does not protect the instructor or dive operator from gross negligence (i.e. situations where they breached their duty of care). Dive professionals are at all times expected to act as any reasonable or prudent dive pro would, when it comes to divers under their supervision.

I don’t understand the legal limits of being a DM on a trip where you are NOT leading the group, but only a participant of a dive. However, I know I’ve seen plenty of DM friends’ only show OW or AOW cert cards when they travel and they never say they are DMs or instructors.

Legally, they have no more responsibility than any other diver on the boat. It's the same situation that applies when a doctor or nurse drives by an accident scene where there are obvious injuries. In that case, they have no more duty of care to that person than anyone else, and it is completely up to them if they want to stop and help. But legally, no one can force you to be a Good Samaritan if you don't want to be, at least under current US law.

And in the event of an accident, showing your OW or AOW card will not really do anything to protect you. A smart lawyer will get the manifest for the boat, and will check the credentials of every person who was on it. They will find out that you are a dive pro. The reason I know this is because something like this actually happened to me one time (it's kind of a long story, so I'll spare the details unless people really want to know).

Maybe this is fodder for a new topic,

I was thinking the same thing, but I'll keep posting here until it moves. We are rapidly approaching the limit of my knowledge from a legal standpoint, but I'll continue to contribute as best I can.

[ScubaHawk]

Second comment = I don't use mine very often but there was a case in point where this thing came in very handy. I was on a dive with several other people and as I was diving along with my buddy I noticed some bubbles coming from below me. I was at 110' There was obviously a problem. Using my shaker I got the attention of the Divemaster that was too far away for me to go get him. He looked at me I gave him a signal about the diver in trouble below me. Off he went. By the time he got to the diver the guy was well below 150 ft. This guy thought it would be cool to see how deep he could go..... I won't even give any opinons on that...

It is all well and fine to find fault in all things that you do not yourself use but who knows when something like this will come in handy.

I don't understand what the problem was. Guy wanted to see how deep he could go. That's his right. Have a great life. He would have come back up eventually. One way or another. I don't rescue darwin candidates.

Wow. . . at the time he didn't know the reason the guy was at 150' and dropping. It was only later thet he could have found out the guy was an idiot. It does bother me to think that if you saw a diver in apparent trouble you wouldn't even try to signal the divemaster that there may be a problem.

[JimG]

I was told that if you see an unsafe incident (drowning, OOA, crash dive to the abyss, etc.) you should try to intercede only if you can do so without endangering yourself.

This is basically the same standard that would be applied to anyone else, whether they were a dive pro or not (i.e. "reasonable person test"). Except that I disagree with the statement that "you should try" - it's more like "you have the option to try".

Actually, you [show your OW/AOW card] to avoid having the local staff buddy you up with problem students or the inexperienced on your vacation.

The only time I ever actually had to rescue a person, it was a situation like this. I had some students on a dive boat for a post-certification "fun" (but still supervised) dive, and allowed the dive shop to stick me with a "walk-up" customer who wanted to go out on the boat that day, but had not been diving in a while. Guess who I wound up having to save . Note that this is not the incident that I described in the above posting - that's a different story.

[PerroneFord]

Wow. . . at the time he didn't know the reason the guy was at 150' and dropping. It was only later thet he could have found out the guy was an idiot. It does bother me to think that if you saw a diver in apparent trouble you wouldn't even try to signal the divemaster that there may be a problem.

Depends on the scenario. If someone is in distress and I can help them, I will. But I have no intention of killing myself to save someone doing something they out not be doing in the first place. I certainly would not ask any of my buddies to risk their hide to save me if I did something stupid.

[Diverbrian]

Actually, I am from the school that says that I will do what I can without putting myself at excessive risk. Liability is why I have insurance. If you find them at the surface you always have the option that they used in The Guardian for panicked swimmers.

As to noisemakers, I have never found a need for one. I normally can't hear much because of that thick hood that I wear. Light signals and staying in the line of sight of buddies work much better up here. But I would tend to go with metal vs. PVC for the pipe.

[nurseshark]

Back to noisemakers...

I think the metal ones work better.So I think what you made will do the job. Usually I can here those very well. But one of the several reasons I dont like them very well is, it seems if someone uses it alot I am always looking all over the place trying to see whats up. Usually it is someone signaling their buddy to look at something , but the sound carries,and I am looking all around trying to find it and see if someone is in distress. I was on one trip where the guy was shaking it at every fish he saw. I was ready to insert it in a "special place" after a few dives with him in our group...

After that, note to self, swim away from the pack....
Also get into the tech world ..go to the dark side....

Perrone, What kind of cookies do you serve with the coolaide ?


Karen

[nydiver]

I had some very nice ones I made from 2 1/2" of 1" thin wall copper pipe, regular pipe caps soldered on, and scrap pieces of brass from work inside. I sent 100 of them off to the powder coater and I guess they came back to work, noone knew what they were and sent them back to the powder coater. Powder coater probably tossed them. They worked good before I sent them off on the company dollar for powder coat


As far as the legal liability for professional care givers, my ex was a neurology nurse and she was involved in a motor vehicle accident, she had minor bruises and climbed dazed out of the car immediatly, 3 cars up a guy had a crushed throat (trach?), she had no idea what was going on, but later the family of the guy (he died due to the injury) brought a suit for negligence against her AND WON! her malpractice insurance promptly dropped her and she had to find a new carrer. So do not think the courts of every state will let professionals out of providing help if they have opportunity (the court here said that since she was aware and not injuried to where she could not aid in stabilizing the scene she bore a level of responsibility in his death). I always found it to be BS as he was a passanger and his daughter who was driving never said anything about her father being in distress, she wore a seatbelt and walked away with minor injuries and a slight concussion but was mentally aware, he was not wearing a seatbelt and was reclined in the seat. Just to think on it brings back a fair level of rage over the stupidity of the court system

[PerroneFord]

Perrone, What kind of cookies do you serve with the coolaide ?
Karen

Any kind you want hon....

As long as it's choclolate chip. We're very flexible here in the kitchen of the death star...

[nurseshark]

Perrone, What kind of cookies do you serve with the coolaide ?
Karen

Any kind you want hon....

As long as it's choclolate chip. We're very flexible here in the kitchen of the death star...

Fabulous....My favorite...

To the dark side and beyond....

[shadragon]

...I was on one trip where the guy was shaking it at every fish he saw. I was ready to insert it in a "special place" after a few dives with him in our group...

Reminds me of a guy I dove with on the Red Sea. Newly frocked OW diver, he would be constantly inflating and dumping air for buoyancy. The entire dive all I heard was psssssssssssssssst... bloop-bloop-bloop... psssssssssssssssst... bloop-bloop... psssst... psssst... psssst... bloop-bloop-bloop...

I am dealing with a plumbing shop to get my pipes cut so I will ask them to do up a couple of 6" long 3/4" copper pipe examples to test as well. I am in the pool on Saturday assisting with an O/W course and can test them. Will use small screws in one and a piece of rod in the other. After this experiment series of shake rattle and roll I will be ready to intern with the Mythbusters... hahaha

Edited by shadragon, 14 March 2007 - 06:19 AM.

[shadragon]

Fabulous....My favorite...

I guess my offer of home made Triple Chocolate Macadamia Nut cookies to keep you on our team will be falling on deaf ears.

[nurseshark]

Fabulous....My favorite...

I guess my offer of home made Triple Chocolate Macadamia Nut cookies to keep you on our team will be falling on deaf ears.

Ummm..... TRIPLE Chocolate.....

I can be easily bought