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The ABCs of Regs...


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#31 Guest_PlatypusMan_*

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 08:57 AM

I'm surprised with all this talk of service and worldwide and such noone mentioned a sherwood maximus, maybe its not a deep reg, but for the average diver its great, and for parts and service? Forget about it, sherwood is the only reg company you can get every part for every reg they've ever made, try that with a dacor (ohhh that's gotta hurt a few people in the know) Plus sherwood regs are so simplistic and easy to service I could teach a 5yr old how to service one (not that we're going to test that theory).


I admit this surprised me also, since that's my reg. I like it. I dive with it. It gets the job done for me.

PlatypusMan
...Sparky, of course doesn't need a reg since he freedives all the time...

#32 PerroneFord

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 09:12 AM

I prefer my regs not to leak all dive...

#33 annasea

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 10:11 AM

What about the actual materials and mechanics of a regulator? Plastic vs. metal? DIN vs. yoke? Diaphragm vs. piston?

Titanium is way too expensive so that's out, but what about the others? In my readings yesterday, I came across a comment about a 1st stage, I believe, by SP that was aluminum and therefore, a bit of a dud.

I know DIN vs. yoke has been discussed here before so I don't want to dig into it again, but for example, when I asked guy #1 about it yesterday, he said the only divers really interested in DIN are tech divers. Is this true?

As for diaphragm vs. piston... I'm clueless.










#34 Geek

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 10:24 AM

What about the actual materials and mechanics of a regulator? Plastic vs. metal? DIN vs. yoke? Diaphragm vs. piston?

Titanium is way too expensive so that's out, but what about the others? In my readings yesterday, I came across a comment about a 1st stage, I believe, by SP that was aluminum and therefore, a bit of a dud.

I know DIN vs. yoke has been discussed here before so I don't want to dig into it again, but for example, when I asked guy #1 about it yesterday, he said the only divers really interested in DIN are tech divers. Is this true?

As for diaphragm vs. piston... I'm clueless.


Regarding the DIN vs. Yoke issue, DIN is not only for tech divers. Yoke is more common, but DIN is more secure and in the 300 BAR variety can be used with higher pressure cylinders. DIN is also more common in Europe.

Generally what one finds around here is that people who own their own tanks go for DIN, but the rental market is all Yoke.

In your case, it sounds unlikely that you will be buying tanks any time in the near future, but if you want to keep your options open there are two ways to go:

1) Buy DIN and get a yoke adapter. This will likely add $30-50 to the cost of your regulator. Your LDS may not have it in stock and need an extra week to get it.

2) Check that a DIN conversion kit exists for your regulator and buy the yoke version. If you do this you will have no immediate extra cost, but if you later make the conversion you will probably spend about $30 more than if you bought the DIN version in the first place.

Most quality regulators have a DIN version and a conversion kit available, so this should not limit your choices very much. If you do run across a model for which DIN is not available, this is an indicator that you are looking at a model that is really not popular and I would steer clear of that model.

#35 PerroneFord

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 10:36 AM

I know DIN vs. yoke has been discussed here before so I don't want to dig into it again, but for example, when I asked guy #1 about it yesterday, he said the only divers really interested in DIN are tech divers. Is this true?

As for diaphragm vs. piston... I'm clueless.


Guy #1 is a moron. Stop listening to morons. They just confuse simple issues. DIN is more secure, can handle higher pressure, won't extrude your o-ring or send it flying across the dive site, is less suscptible to snags, etc. There is absolutely ZERO advantage to yoke over DIN.

Diaphragm vs piston is immaterial to your diving. I use diaphragm because they are a bit more robust for cold water diving and keeping crud from fouling the reg.

#36 ddierolf

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 11:07 AM

My personal viewpoint is that I don't mind spending the extra money to get a very good reg. It is what I use to breath with, and to me, breathing is very important. I even spent extra money on my pony reg because it is for emergencies. The LDS said that it was not needed, but to me, again, breathing is very important.
I use an Apeks Atx200 for my main reg and an Apeks Atx50 on my pony bottle. This way if I have an issue with my main reg while traveling, I have a good reg I can switch to from my pony bottle. I understand how budget is very important. With that in mind, to me I would spend more money on a better reg setup and go from there. I switched my reg to din, but I have the yoke adapter in case I need to rent or use someone elses tanks. Just my $.02 worth.

Edited by ddierolf, 16 March 2007 - 11:24 AM.

Which end is up?


#37 finGrabber

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 12:22 PM

I agree with Perrone; Guy#1 is a moron!

Yoke is more prevalent in the US and Caribbean but you should understand that DIN is much more secure for all the reason's Perrone laid out for you

My regs are all piston. You should try to rent regs that are diaphram and piston to find out which you prefer. Then, decide if you plan to ever dive in BC. The most challenging environment is the one you should buy your regs for. Or plan to rent appropriate regs for the most challenging environment. You will need to make some decisions as to where you plan to take your diving in the future. Nothing is worse than having to make new purchases every time you go diving!

#38 PerroneFord

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 12:57 PM

Nothing is worse than having to make new purchases every time you go diving!


I don't think I have EVER seen a sport akin to SCUBA, where people underbuy so often and have to re-buy. People ask, you give them your reasoning on why buying something is false economy, and they buy it anyway. A year later they have to turn around and buy the same thing all over again. And it's usually on high margin, poor resale things.

People buy monstrous BCs only to realize later that it's awful in the water. People buy 3-4 guage consoles only to feel like they are weightlifting at the end of 2 or 3 hour long dives. People buying expensive computers only to realize later that it won't let you switch gases underwater, or won't let you put it on a wrist. The Suunto Cobra is a classic example of that. People buy super expensive Titanium regs and show them off, then they take adv. nitrox and reaize they bought an $800 doorstop.

#39 secretsea18

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 01:09 PM

Well I think there is a huge degree of personal preference for us "regular" divers.

I have the MK20UL (yes, the aluminum one) and although it does have the corrosion issue (this has been an entirely cosmetic issue with my regulator, as confirmed by three different service technicians in three regions of the country), I do service it every year per manufacturers standards. I have had it for 10 years and even with the corrosion issue, I love it. It has been completely replaced by Scubapro due entirely this "cosmetic" corrosion. It has never had problems on the working parts, and the all service parts have been replaced for free, and they mean it when they say free replacement parts... as they can cost $30-40 per service. I love the idea of getting an entirely new regulator now and then, when there is cosmetic corrosion. I do about 100 dives a year, give or take, but do not dive in ice (heck, I don't even like it when the air or water is < 75 degrees, and I DO have a drysuit), caves or go inside wrecks (gives me the heeby-jeebies). I never worry about my regulator malfunctioning as I get it serviced by excellent technicians who have always addressed any internal mechanical concerns with me, it has excellent breathing performance (although the material has some issues, it does not affect the performance at all), never breathes wet (and I often am inverted) and travels well. So much for the "inferior" regulator ... my flame suit is now off.

I also don't think that the DIN is that much of a big deal, except for most places I have been diving that have had European divers with DIN regs. As all the tanks were yoke style, their DIN regs were not able to put onto the tank because the dive operator didn't have the adaptor, and the diver didn't have the adaptor either. So unless there is some special reason to use the DIN, the yoke seems to be the standard connection to the tank in most places, at least in the Pacific/Indian ocean regions.

When I bought my first regulator, and the SP MK20UL is my second ever, I asked a lot of people what I should get. The universal response was "it is your personal preference" and I was so frustrated, as I had no "personal preference" yet, and had no good way to obtain said preference without renting lots of gear, and I wanted to have my own.

If I were at that stage in my diving right now... I would look at the recommendations from my friends, and then look at the "Rodales scubalab" reports. They test performance characteristics, and add to that the opinions of a number of "testers" while diving certain tests... I think they make rather good assessments of good buys and take the cost into consideration.

For what it is worth, I would recommend a new reg over a used one, unless it was from a person that I knew, and knew why they were selling it...

Good luck.

Edited by secretsea18, 16 March 2007 - 01:12 PM.


#40 finGrabber

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 01:34 PM

Nothing is worse than having to make new purchases every time you go diving!


I don't think I have EVER seen a sport akin to SCUBA, where people underbuy so often and have to re-buy. People ask, you give them your reasoning on why buying something is false economy, and they buy it anyway. A year later they have to turn around and buy the same thing all over again. And it's usually on high margin, poor resale things.

People buy monstrous BCs only to realize later that it's awful in the water. People buy 3-4 guage consoles only to feel like they are weightlifting at the end of 2 or 3 hour long dives. People buying expensive computers only to realize later that it won't let you switch gases underwater, or won't let you put it on a wrist. The Suunto Cobra is a classic example of that. People buy super expensive Titanium regs and show them off, then they take adv. nitrox and reaize they bought an $800 doorstop.

I agree with everything you've said!

The hard part is knowing where you want your diving to go and then buy appropriate equipment the first time thru. The only thing I need to replace for my tech diving classes will be a BP/W setup instead of a Zeagle Ranger.

My best advice is to really do some soul searching...Decide if you will NEVER dive in BC now before you purchase your regs. There is nothing wrong with being a warm water wuss but keep in mind that BC is some of the best diving in the world -- it is cold, however and that's why you should decide now if you want to always travel for diving or if you want to dive right outside your doorstep

my advice is to assume you will and buy accordingly now. That would mean environmentaly sealed, a reg that won't freeze, one that breathes great at depth and one you can get serviced locally. Free parts mean nothing if your spend the money saved on shipping

#41 CozRob

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 01:45 PM

I vaguely recall from my readings that the original owner of certain equipment is entitled to free, lifetime parts. Is this true? Does it apply to regs? In the long run, does buying new pay for itself?


Yes. Yes. Yes. OTOH, the key is it applies only to certain equipment. Scubapro, for example, offers such a warranty on their equipment, all companies do not. It also only applies if you never miss a scheduled servicing. Miss one and the warranty is gone forever.

I've bought regulators both new and used. As long as parts are readily available, either should be fine. If buying used, I'd want a big discount over new, $350 for a used reg, doesn't sound like a deal to me.

Other than the first and second stage, what about the durability of an SPG, compass and octo?


The octo is a second stage. SPGs and compasses are usually fine, although SPGs will sometimes develop a slow leak where they connect to the hose. The good news is that's easily fixed in about 30 seconds. Often, that's a repair for which a shop doesn't even bother to charge. Make sure there's no air pocket in the compass.

Got news for you SPGs are very touchy drop it from 2 feet once and it will read 100 to 200 psi off . Buy a new one and be careful with it.
As for regs lets call it what it is " Life Support Equipment " Do you really want to trust your life with someones cast off equipment ? Pick out the best one you can afford then wait a bit save up some more money and spend another $100.00

#42 Cold_H2O

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 04:23 PM

{snip}
I know DIN vs. yoke has been discussed here before so I don't want to dig into it again, but for example, when I asked guy #1 about it yesterday, he said the only divers really interested in DIN are tech divers. Is this true?

As for diaphragm vs. piston... I'm clueless.

I dive DIN ~ most of my dive buddies dive DIN. I prefer it to a yoke.
My DIN reg setup came with a yoke adapter that works fine when I am traveling and diving.
I own my own tanks and yep.. they are DIN.. imagine that.
I opted to purchase HP steel tanks.

I guess I was a techie.. from the very start... now I just need to get moving and get the tech certs... :birthday:
Well Behave Women Rarely Make History ~ Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Formerly known as gis_gal and name tattoo'd for a small bribe!

#43 ev780

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 06:10 PM

I have a differing opinion. (as usual)

Once I knew the gear I wanted I had severe sticker shock!!!! :birthday:

Ebay to the rescue. I got all of the gear I wanted by being patient and being very careful what items I bid on. I also spent a hell of a lot less!!!! .75 on the dollar I would suspect. I bought a Poseidon Odin reg, my Oceanic Data Trans Plus, most of my neoprene, mask fins, snorkel, and a whole bunch of assorted doodads, all on Ebay. The computer was NIB so that was OK. The reg had "50 dives" on it. Took a chance bought it and had it serviced and lo and behold it has been my easy breathing friend ever since.

It's a risk and there are warranty issues as mentioned. Also sometimes things on Ebay are no bargain once shipping is included so you have to know your prices before even starting. The chances of getting screwed are there, but remarkably I have had good luck with Ebay. It kind of restores my faith in people when the vast majority of Ebayers are just regular people trading stuff. Very few are out to get you IMHO.

Just one guys opinion. I could never have afforded the quality of gear I ended up with unless it was used. My life is different now as I my financial situation has improved considerably :birthday: and I don't have to take those risks but it is one way of getting quality stuff.

Fred
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#44 PerroneFord

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 06:57 PM

ev780 has forced me into making a plug here:

I realize many of you come from landlocked areas. Lucky for me, I do not. However, I do live in cave country. Technical diving is the name of the game here. And that has many, many side benefits. One of which, is that cave divers tend to trade gear ALL THE TIME. They also tend to be VERY cautious about their gear. Now that doesn't mean cosmetics, but when you are planning on diving a quarter or half a mile (or more) back in a cave, you cannot have ANY question about the reliability or quality of your gear.

It should be noted, that for those looking for quality technical gear at bargain prices, it is worth checking out the areas and shops that deal with cave gear. Rarely is it flashy. And you might not understand why some of it is the way that it is, but it's all solid gear. You'll find nearly nothing plastic. All the regs will be easy breathing. You can get your reels, lights, etc. No one needs working lights like a cave diver!

I have bought a significant amount of used dive gear. One of my regs, one of my lights, my depth guage, etc. all purchased used. However, it helps to know what you want, and how to wait for it. You can count on seeing 4-5 sets of tanks a week for sale. I say sets, because we generally dive doubles. Nice way to get into them. My double AL80s are used.

Anyway, just an alternative to Ebay for those looking for robust gear at bargain prices.

#45 Geek

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 07:53 PM

This thread has made me do a little thinking, and at the risk of hijacking the thread, I'd like to discuss te money aspect of gear purchases. If a moderator feels this should be a new thread, I won't object.

Scuba gear is pretty expensive stuff, and because there are so many bits of gear you need it adds up to a rather large bill by almost anyone's measure. As a result, your budget and your attitude about money impacts your gear buying decisions, particularly as a new diver. Also, as a new diver the tendency is to think that you can buy this stuff once and be done with it. As a practical matter that seldom turns out to be the case.

When I first started diving, I bought affordable recreational gear. Since my son was also diving and we had some uncertainty about what we were buying, we would buy one of something, try it for awhile, then either switch to something else, or buy a second one if we were happy with the first purchase. I also had the view that the only diving I wanted to do was warm water diving, so we wound up with our two recreational set ups and that was it for awhile. I thought I was done.

Later I found I could take more frequent trips and generally there was one piece of gear I found least satisfactory, so for each trip I bought a replacement for something. I started to think in terms of an annual gear budget. This took me through an upgrade cycle.

Then a few years ago I decided I wanted to do local, cold water, diving too. Fortunately, the upgraded gear was all good stuff, capable of handling local conditions. As a result, I didn't need new regs, but I did need exposure protection, tanks, etc. I started adding stuff a bit at a time. I also decided to take some more classes. Each class seemed to require some additional piece of gear I didn't have.

As a result, I now think in terms of a regular budget for scuba gear. I don't think of it as a one time purchase.

If you are just starting scuba, particularly if you are a warm water diver living in a cold water area, it is rather hard to predict how your interest will develop, or how much you will actually be able to participate in the sport. You need pretty much everything and don't know one brand from another. You don't want to make bad purchases. Rentals seem overpriced.

So here is what I recommend whether we are talking about regs, a BC, a computer, or any other expensive piece of gear: Try to borrow gear. Test gear in the LDS pool if they allow that. Rent gear even though it may seem expensive. Buy one piece, not everything.

Several things will occur. You will get to know what kind of diving you will be doing, and you will get to know your gear preferences. After you have done this and you are ready to buy gear then follow these rules for the expensive parts:

1) Spend money to get better regulators than you think you need. The regs are life support. If you get high end regs and quit diving you can sell them later, but nobody is going to want a used, bottom quality, regulator. This is the last place to economize.
2) For the computer, get an inexpensive nitrox computer. You don't save much on an air only model, but you don't want to spend a lot on something that will rapidly become technically obsolete. If you stick with the sport you may eventually upgrade, but by the time you need to buy today's whiz bang computer the price will have dropped, so this is an area where you can economize on your first purchase. When you do upgrade that inexpensive nitrox computer can serve as a backup bottom timer.
3) For the BC your major decision is whether to go BP/W set up or conventional. Fortunately, the price is not terribly different. I suggest the BP/W because if you decide you want to do different types of diving, you can just get another wing and not another entire BC, but you'll spend roughly the same amount either way.
4) Exposure suit. This has to be specific to the diving you are doing and has to fit. Rent until you are absolutely sure you know what you want. For those who must buy and are going to be doing warm water diving, I suggest a 3mm. A few may find it too heavy, or not heavy enough, but it will be okay for most for a winter trip to the Caribbean. However, I have seen people in .5mm and 7mm suits diving together so I really suggest renting until you are sure.
5) Try not to buy everything at once. Borrowing gear is not difficult if you get to know some local divers, especially experienced divers who have accumulated a bunch of excess stuff, because they went through the same drill and wound up upgrading everything a couple times. For instance, I have a bunch of different wings. I have a variety of tanks. I've lost count of how many pairs of fins are in the basement. Since my son dives we tend to have two of everything. My son's friends have borrowed my gear and gone diving with him and I have loaned gear to people I know. Right now my wife is learning to dive and the only thing we have had to buy is a mask because she needs prescription lenses. Everything else we already had. After she has been diving a bit we will start to get personal gear for her. It will be pink. :birthday:

If you live in my area and want to borrow something that I already have, let me know and we'll meet out at Dutch Springs.

I hope this helps a few of you who are facing that major first set of gear. That initial set of gear is expensive because you don't know if you will dive enough to get value out of it, you don't know the type of diving you will do, and you need everything at the same time. If you can follow these suggestions, you may still make some wrong purchases, but you'll make fewer of them.

Edited by Geek, 16 March 2007 - 07:57 PM.





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