96 replies to this topic

[annasea]

<snip>

I dive with the ScubaPro MK25/S600 titanium. I love it. It's light and it seems I am always pushing the airline weight restrictions when I travel so anything helps. However, it is expensive and unless you do a LOT of travel to remote areas of the world, there is better bang for the buck out there. ScubaPro regs also have a LOT of parts. The Apex is a great reg and has many fewer components in its makeup (I have one on order now).

Just so I'm clear here... LESS parts is better, correct? The less parts there are, the less there is to break down. This would be a definite plus for Apeks in my mind.

Also check with your LDS. I know that my LDS is very generous in working with anyone who is loyal to them. Also, you may want to ask them if they will allow you to rent a variety of different reg makes until you decide which makes you more confident and comfortable as a diver. If you deal with them up front, my guess would be that you have a great chance at getting them to apply all of your rental expense against the cost of the new reg!!

I like this idea but since I won't be diving local, I wouldn't feel comfortable taking their equipment to a far-off place, even if they'd allow it.

[PerroneFord]

Fewer parts doesn't always mean better. Better means better. If one reg has 25 high quality parts, and another has 10 crappy parts....

I don't recommend titanium regs for a number of reasons. One is cost, another is potential nitrox incompatibility. They do weigh less, but my gear is so heavy, I just don't worry about it.

LDS's can be great. Some are crap. Support a good LDS if you have one. Don't support a bad one just because they are local. The idea that the dive market is shrinking is bogus. There are record numbers of divers.

As for not buying on the internet, the shops I purchase from are LDS's to someone else. So I never got the point. ScubaToys is an LDS for the Dallas market. Leisurepro is an LDS to NYC divers. As for the warranty issue, many, if not most shops, are authorized to sell what they have online. ScubaToys is an authorized dealer for everything on their webpages. They also price match, even to shops that are NOT authorized reselers. Take that for what it's worth. If you're buying a computer, that warranty might be handy. If you're buying a set of jetfins, well after 20 years, who cares really?

As for my dive guage, it was worn on my right arm, same place my dive computer is now. Works great. Control buoyancy with left hand, monitor depth with the right hand. Very logical and easy.

Skip the compass and buy a nicer reg.

As for buying regulator parts while on vacation... why? Buy a spare second stage and toss it in the bag. If you can't do that, rent one if your's breaks. A spare second stage is $70. An emergency repair will cost you that in labor alone. Toss a couple hoses in hyour bag while you're at it. One HP and one LP.

Oh, and if you aren't going to buy a dive computer, get a diving watch. I did about 15 dives with a Wal-Mart watch I bought for under $7. Works great and is in my spares kit now. I did my first 100ft dive with it. I use a Casio G-Shock as my primary dive watch. Cost about $70.

You don't have to spend a fortune on dive gear to start out. Spend real money where it counts. BC, regs, exposure suit.

Edited by PerroneFord, 15 March 2007 - 03:40 PM.

[echo3]

being fairly new to this, and on the market for a reg setup this interests me.

I've been to 4-5 shops and get mixed (most likely biased IMHO) oppinions.

they all agree that for the most part, everything made of late is good equipment.

big factors is performance, parts availablility and waranty. (when you get done with all that, THEN you can toss in personal preferance!)

I've seen the bias... most shops are pushing THEIR stuff and will always have something 'not so great' to say about the competition.

One shop I talked to said that repair parts for european made equipment is getting harder to come by. (Oceanic dealer)

another said that Oceanic reg housings crack near the hose attach point (they DID (some) several models ago) (Atomic dealer)


I've heard enough pros and con's to offset each other on the Mares, making them a null.

USD seems to be one of the few most positive reports I've seen.

I've had one shop say that Zeagle and Mares is top drawer.


I haven't seen much mention of TUSA or Cressi.



this has been so mind boggling / numbing that it's actually the worst part of diving that I've experinced. I've gotten an earful from plenty, so much that I've started a website to keep track of it all... (I'll share more about that later when It's somewhat ready for traffic)


I do know that I will be buying this stuff new (It's my life and you never know what the hell someone did with their equipment (knowingly or not)) IF and I did say IF, I were to buy used, I'd have them gone though before mounting it to a tank.


Which brings me to another point (sorry to hi-jack this thead, but it does relate) ...

I've seen the work benches/spaces that some techs use to service equipment. Some have been pretty clean, others were no better than a service bay at your local car mechanic. (Don't be affraid to ask to look at the service area and make sure it's kept clean. If they won't show it to you, don't have your work done there!) (just my oppinion, I've worked on critical equipment and it was in a clean room . Same goes for anything that will handle O2; a clean area is paramount!)

[scubafanatic]

So I'm thinking about regs... Where to start?

If possible, I'd prefer to buy used. The main pro being cost, of course, and the main con being condition. How does one know if one is buying a regulator set that's workable? What types of questions should one ask the seller?

What about servicing? I vaguely recall from my readings that the original owner of certain equipment is entitled to free, lifetime parts. Is this true? Does it apply to regs? In the long run, does buying new pay for itself? (Assuming free parts.)

Other than the first and second stage, what about the durability of an SPG, compass and octo? What does one need to look for when buying these components used?

I saw an advert for a Scubapro MK20 regulator set, octopus, depth, pressure, and compass in "good shape" recently. The asking price is $350 CDN. I'm reckoning it's worth looking into, but I don't know what to ask or what to look for.

....well, for starters...it's hard to quantify 'an advert' ....... is this E-Bay...... used/rental gear from a dive shop...a newspaper ad ??? I've bought a number of regs ( brand new and used off E-Bay , as well as new from local dive shops. ) ...as so far I've had good luck on everything so far.

E- Bay is a gamble and I can't promise you'll be a lucky as I've been........ if possible, buy your used reg locally and arrange to have the reg set tested in your presence at you dive shop of choice...this will rule out major problems at least........ ideally have your shop do an 'annual' on it, test dive it (pool) , and buy then if it passes your inspection.

...with respect to brands..... I dive Mares / Apeks / Atomic Aquatics / Aqualung / Poseidon. If you are looking for 'affordable' yet high performance new regs, the Aqualung Titan LX and Atomic Aquatics Z2 are both excellent choices.

I've been very impressed with my Mares Ruby/Mares MR16 Voltrex......Atomic B1/T2....... Apeks XTX 200 ......Aqualung Titan LX.....and Poseidon Jetstream.

I've never dove Scubapro...if I did, I'd go with a diaphragm 1st stage model ( superior cold /dirty water reliability/ lower maintainance ) like their MK17.

The Scubapro MK20 is probably a perfectly fine reg (as long as it isn't the ultra-light part aluminum 1st stage...these corrode easily in seawater and are brittle and prone to impact/stress fracture) ....... the condition the reg is in at purchase, the degree to which it's maintained/cleaned/ and the skill of your chosen reg tech will make a bigger difference to the regs overall performance than will the choice of a particular brand/model.

Karl

[Cold_H2O]

I think another thing that needs to be mentioned is usage.
How are you planning on diving???

Annasea lives near me but does not enjoy diving in the cold waters of Puget Sound.
(for those of you who are detail oriented ~ Canada is near WA to us locals)

I do 95% of my dives in the cold water.
My needs for a reg are not going to be the same as hers.
I dive deep and cold more than not.

What makes a reg great is hard to say. Like most gear, it depends on how you are using it.
I love my Poseidons they are rated for deep and cold waters. MK's are also a good cold deep reg.

If I was diving more warm waters and staying purely within recreational limits I might have selected a different reg set up.
The best advice I received when I was reg shopping was dive with buddies and breath their regs.
You can only really know what works best for you by trying different ones out.

Just another twist in this fabulous topic of what makes a great reg.

Edited by gis_gal, 15 March 2007 - 06:51 PM.

[PerroneFord]

Echo3,

I feel your pain. I went through the same BS when I was looking for stuff. A sales person (cave diver no less) told me that the Genesis 2000 something or other was the "Ferrari of regs". I actually laughed in his face. Then said Ferraris spend more time in service than any other car on the planet. By the way, what do YOU dive. You can bet it wasn't Genesis.

So what I did was take a look at what divers doing the kinds of dives I wanted to do, were using. The same names kept popping up time and time again. Apeks (DS4, ATX), ScubaPro (Mk25/G250). There were a sprinking of others mixed in, but 95+% were using one of those three regs. That told me a lot.

I looked at BCs. Did the same. Almost 100% of divers doing the type of diving I wished to do were in BP/W. That was an easy decision to make.

Annasea's intent, according to her posts, is to dive in warm, tropical waters, doing mostly shallow reef diving. Under those circumstances I would not recommend a Poseiden, or a SPMk25. Though those are fine regs, they are huge overkill. If she told me she was going to be doing Deco diving in the kelp forests, then I'd certainly recommend something else.

In my case, I wanted to dive the local caves, and the Great Lakes. I visited webpages, bought magazines specific to those endeavors, and read all I could. I got on the internet and talked to divers doing those dives. Took about 4-6 months, but I got the answers I needed and I am VERY pleased with the gear I got.

It's not too hard, but consider your sources. If you want to dive caves, ask a dozen cavers. If you want to dive in Scapa Flow, ask a bunch of UK divers what they use and why.

[Geek]

I think the advice about considering the type of diving you'll be doing is excellent. However, if you are like a lot of people, including me, you may decide to move on to other types of diving over time. For many years the only diving I did was warm water diving, which meant vacations. I finally decided that if I wanted to do more diving then I had to do local diving, which meant cold water, etc.

This change in what kind of diving I was doing resulted in needing a lot of additional gear, but really didn't force me to replace much of what I had, as I had purchased stuff that could stand up to at least an occasional local cold water dive. In other words, I needed to go out and buy things like a dry suit, but I did not need to replace my regs, etc.

As a result, I would suggest that while annasea currently expresses interest in warm water, and not local conditions where she is, she ought to consider models that might be overkill for her preferred diving, but will also handle local conditions in case she later expands her diving to include her local area.

Edited by Geek, 15 March 2007 - 07:19 PM.

[annasea]

I wound up at a dive shop today during my travels and spent some time chatting with the guys there. Since they primarily deal with Oceanic, they talked the most about their regs. Oceanic has lifetime parts which is nice, and 2nd stages with a swivel feature. I don't remember the details but I do recall this feature being poo-pooed on SB. I mentioned this and guy #1 said the only drawback of the swivel head is it requires an extra O ring. I didn't push it but I reckon there's a reason why so many divers don't care for this feature.

So then guy #2 takes over and informs me he's also the service tech and that Scubapro regs, for example, can be a real PITA to service. Too many parts, I believe, he said. Good regs though.

During my time with guy #1, we talked about configuration a bit. His personal preference is to have everything -- compass, computer/depth gauge, SPG -- grouped together in a console. This way everything is in one place and he only needs to check one location. I saw the logic in this especially as a new diver who currently burns through air like nobody's business, and is therefore monitoring my SPG on a *minute* basis. So since I'm already there checking my air, I might as well check everything else, too.

One thing he reminded me of though which makes this whole configuration thing easier to decide upon is the fact that I don't *really* need to decide all that much. If I decide in the future that I'd prefer to wear my computer on my wrist, all I need to do is buy a wrist mount for it; it's not like I need to buy a whole new computer.

Is there some sort of reliable, unbiased, objective agency or such out there that compares scuba equipment? Some sort of Consumer Reports for divers?

[Scubatooth]

This is what i dont like about the scuba industry is that how they define there warrenties so warped its not funny. Then how the dealerships and pricing policies are written it all smacks of price fixing and mob tactics, as i have heard most of it.

The "lifetime warrenty" for some manufactures is 7-10 years and not a true lifetime, and thats only contingent if you have it serviced every 365 days, if your one day over it expries with no wiggle room ie dacor, mares.

plus what real value does it add to the cost of the item in question. There is a shop close to my house that talk up the warrenty like its the best thing since nitrox, but in reality they have marked up the service (labor)cost on all warrenty repairs as i have had regs go for service that where warrenty and not and the price was the same, go figure. even if the service isnt marked up it will take a number of years before the cost of ownership is the same.

Then new vs used debate is a no brainer for me in that if its in good condition why not, yeah there isnt a warrenty but based off what im paying for used regs it will take 15+ years of annuals to cover the difference of the parts used before i cover the gap. ie i can get a set of posiedon odins with octo for about 250 used and annual run in the 75 range and then any parts i need to replace (have a source for indivdual parts that doesnt have the industry standard 100% mark up) depending on where i get it done. the same setup new in shop is going to be in the 650-800+ range, posiedon also will warranty any work on regs worked on by a certified tech and extend the warrenty even if you arent the original owner.

Another example is apex regs there at a higher cost point on the used market (~350+ for a atx200) but the servicing is the same. in store brand new that reg is almost $700 even if i am paying for parts its still a better deal used.

for the record i will shop where ever i can get the good deal and service (they dont have to be the same place and currently my next reg service will be done in the PNW for one set and east coast for another). The whole industry thing of support you lds to me is fine but it depends on weather your honest with me, if your going to give me this whole grey market story and how theres no warrenty if you dont buy it from me, etc just makes me walk out the door as i wont deal with those tactics. I'm to the point in my diving that average dive store doesnt have what i need; the only thing they have for me is air for my non 02 cleaned tanks.

</soapbox>

[PerroneFord]

Oceanic makes nice recreational regs. Good breathers. I have one myself. ScubaPros ARE a PITA to service. But you aren't sevicing the regs. I think they are unnecessarily complicated. Same with Posieden's, but that's just my opinion. The swivel on the Oceanic also requires a special hose. If you want to go with a 7ft hose, the hose is about $84 if I remember correctly. And yes, it has another o-ring which has to be checked and serviced.

Having everything in a console sounds terrific. But everything you put in the console is negative. And the rubber holder is heavy and negaive. So now you've got this brick hanging from you all dive. And it weighs 2-3 pounds in the water. So you get to lift 2-3 pounds every time you want to check your depth, or your air. It works, but it's a very inelegant solution.

You're a new diver. Nearly all new divers burn through air. Unless you've changed a LOT since I last saw you dive, you burn through air because you are not neutral in the water, and your propulsion technique is not efficient. With practice it will come. But you DO have to practice it.

Yea, you can move the computer from the console to the wrist. So what happens when you move your compass to your wrist? Now you have a 3 pound console with a single guage. So now you ditch the console and you're back to where you should have started in the first place.

The unbiased, objective reviews are your friends here trying to give you good advice because we've been there. If you keep taking advice from people trying to sell you somethnig, you'll be re-buying a lot of gear...

[finGrabber]

All my regs are ScubaPro - I love 'em!!

and I don't care if they are more difficult/complicated than other regs -- they breathe at depth the way I expect; I don't have to work hard to suck air out of the tank, and that's what matters to me

Most of my regs were bought used but I didn't do that until I found an exceptional reg tech who takes care of my regs. I can sit in his workshop, talk to him while he works on them and then test them myself. That is priceless!

Also, I agree with Perrone -- I would never consider diving a computer in a console. It's too heavy and way too un-user friendly. I love having my computer on my arm...when I'm diving, all I have to do is twist my arm a bit and I can see everything I need: time, depth, temp. After about 50 dives or so, I was able to estimate when to check my pressure gauge. Now, I just seem to "know" when it's time to check it.

if SP no longer provided service kits and I HAD to change, the next regs I'd look at are Atomic, Dive Rite, Salvo, OMS; Most likely it would be Atomic for service out of the US; then I'd probably look at Salvo or Dive Rite

Also, I would not consider Oceanic, Mares, Dacor for regs. I love my Mares Quattro fins, but I don't like the rest of their line

[ScubaDadMiami]

Truthfully, any quality made regulator these days is not bad especially if you are only doing recreational diving and do not have plans to ever start with technical, deep dives. Also, technology improves the overall product. So, what is good today will not exactly be the best performer in 10 years. (I still have a set of regulators that will work fine for pretty much any diving that are over 20 years old, but I did get a new, high performance set for my primary set up in about 2003.)

You can save some money by buying a good, workhorse regulator where parts will be easy to find for a long time to come. You don't need the best performer on the market unless that is what you need. However, a note of caution goes with this. You might not think you will ever do certain types of dives now. However, in 5 years, you never know. So, if it is a small difference in price, go for the best. If it is big difference, take that into consideration.

The way that gear works on land and in the shop is not the way that it will work in the water. Having a console sounds great, and it can work. However, you will be swimming with your arms in front of you most of the time anyway. So, why not just make most of your set up so that you can just glance down to see the information instead of having to dig out the console and then put it back? You can have your compass, depth and timer on your wrist, and if you go with a computer, you might have more information than that right there (such as even tank pressure).

[nydiver]

I'm surprised with all this talk of service and worldwide and such noone mentioned a sherwood maximus, maybe its not a deep reg, but for the average diver its great, and for parts and service? Forget about it, sherwood is the only reg company you can get every part for every reg they've ever made, try that with a dacor (ohhh that's gotta hurt a few people in the know) Plus sherwood regs are so simplistic and easy to service I could teach a 5yr old how to service one (not that we're going to test that theory).

Have to agree with Peronne, SP is a real PITA on the service end, we don't bother with them despite all the people who don't trust the local SP dealer anymore to service them, we send them out to a shop a few hours away, he gouges customers and is very slow, but thats the chance people in our town took when they bought their gear from our competitor. We feel bad because we sold dacor under the former management for years, it was the flagship brand in the store, now we have to turn away our oldest most loyal of customers or we try and cut heluva deals on a new Aeris or Sherwood reg, that doesn't leave the best taste in peoples mouths, but when they go elsewhere to try and get the regs serviced they find out we ain't joking, Mares screwed every dacor dealer over for parts on the older dacors.

Also as far as the Genesis 2000, it was a great reg for its day, it was a best buy, and editor's choice winner, but its day in the sun is over and its now eclipsed by newer greater regs that are out there, still a great reg but its just a mid-pack reg now.

[shadragon]

I haven't seen much mention of TUSA or Cressi.

I was rather amazed to realize that some TUSA regs are exact copies of the ScubaPro's I own. Right to the point of using the same parts kit for servicing. I have heard they do this to several major brands. Personally, I prefer the original.

[shadragon]

The same names kept popping up time and time again. Apeks (DS4, ATX), ScubaPro (Mk25/G250). There were a sprinking of others mixed in, but 95+% were using one of those three regs. That told me a lot.

If I had to do it again I would go to the MK25. It is a balanced reg and certainly one that I would never drive to its limits. As PF says, the type of diving and location may influence your purchase decision. Most of the major brand names are solid regs and for rec diving perfectly acceptable. Apart from initial cost also keep an eye on if there is local servicing in your area, cost of replacement parts and warranty.