96 replies to this topic

[secretsea18]

Just an aside from the main part of the thread... "buying a regulator"... but I just have to ask:

How do you run out of air when practicing in a 10Ft pool... Glad that you had practiced etc... but was there a guage problem, were you in the water for like 6 hours to run down the tank, did the SPG read incorrectly, reg failure ....

We had been in the water for about 2 hours on that tank. We had been working on ascents and descents thus she was filling and draining her BC. She was checking her guages regularly during that part. But when we went to buoyancy and trim, she was so preoccupied with trying to hold position, get her feet right, head up, back arched, etc... she just lost track of it. At that point, she had less than 10 dives, so it was forgivable. I was task loading her more than some get in cavern class.

reasonable explaination...

[6Gill]

Please excuse the numerous qoutes ect...been away for a bit and try to catch up.

Eric

As insurance goes up in price it is inevitable that shops will start to clamp down on gray market purchases in the future to protect themselves from litigation.

Just curious...protect from what sort of litigation?

I am not that fond of ScubaPro though they make good regs. I avoid buying from companies that strong arm dive shops, so that lets off ScubaPro as well as Aqualung. Mares are not in the same league in my opinion. Apeks is a top reg and would be my top choice. They are distributed by Aqualung in the US (which is a problem for me) but can be bought directly out of the country with full warranty.

I'm in the same boat...lots of SP but all bought used for a great price cause most people want to buy only new....bless you all

I've never dove Scubapro...if I did, I'd go with a diaphragm 1st stage model ( superior cold /dirty water reliability/ lower maintainance ) like their MK17.

I can't comment on the 17 but regularly dive the 10,20 and 25 SP piston 1st stages here in PNW with no issues

So then guy #2 takes over and informs me he's also the service tech and that Scubapro regs, for example, can be a real PITA to service. Too many parts, I believe, he said. Good regs though.

Must be a personal thing...I don't find SP an issue or complicated but have no intrest in servicing Possidens

I know DIN vs. yoke has been discussed here before so I don't want to dig into it again, but for example, when I asked guy #1 about it yesterday, he said the only divers really interested in DIN are tech divers. Is this true?

As for diaphragm vs. piston... I'm clueless.

Pm me the shop if you can you've got me curious.
Can't really go wong with a quality reg either piston or diaphram

[my advice is to assume you will and buy accordingly now. That would mean environmentaly sealed, a reg that won't freeze, one that breathes great at depth and one you can get serviced locally. Free parts mean nothing if your spend the money saved on shipping

I wouldn't get to worried about enviromently sealed regs

I use software that tracks almost everything I spend. Even after all of the saving on fills with the CCR, is all I can say about how much I have spent as an average on diving each year.

Be glad you don't have to justify your spending to anyone....

[shadragon]

Just curious...protect from what sort of litigation?

Hi 6Gill... Given the reasonable and level headed legal system in the US where no one sues anyone over anything (tongue firmly in cheek there) the companies have to cover their collective a$$es. Let's say someone purchases a reg on EBay for example, then goes for a dive. The reg fails at depth and they die. Grieving relatives would naturally want to go after the manufacturer. They could go after the previous owner of the equipment, but realistically an individual is not as attractive for lawyers as they have limited funds. The reason for the failure could be any one of a dozen things, but the logo on the front is now a target for a lawsuit. Companies have cash. Companies will want to hush this up ASAP and might even settle out of court to get rid of the bad press; even if the fault was not theirs. Do you remember the McDonald's 'hot coffee spilled in lap after going through the drive thru' story and subsequent multi-million dollar payout? Here is a quote from a legal website explaining what is involved:

Product Liability Link
A product liability lawsuit involves injury caused by a defective product. A defective product is one that is not reasonably safe for its intended use. An intended use of a product includes all those uses a reasonably prudent person might make of the product, bearing in mind its characteristics, warnings and labels. (Italics added by me)

In other words, the manufacturer can be held liable if there are inadequate warnings or labels, etc. I won't post examples, there are thousands. Just search Google with the words "lawsuit equipment failure manufacturer". There are 1.1+ million web pages!

So back to SCUBA gear. I went to the ScubaPro website (not singling them out. All my regs are ScubaPro and I know their website and material better than most) and found this under their FAQ's:

ScubaPro FAQ Link
...Any SCUBAPRO UWATEC warranty is only available to the original owner/purchaser. Because it is life support equipment, we would strongly recommend that you take it to an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer, if you choose to purchase used equipment, to have it inspected. They can verify that it is in operating condition and that it is performing to SCUBAPRO UWATEC specifications. We would also advise you to follow the SCUBAPRO UWATEC recommended service and maintenance guidelines for your product.

So if you buy a ScubaPro reg second hand the warranty is void and they recommend you get it inspected and serviced. They also remind you to follow their maintenance recommendations, etc. More on another part of their site:

ScubaPro Maintenance Link
d. If the equipment is improperly serviced, or repaired by persons repaired by persons who are not part of the SCUBAPRO/UWATEC Authorized Dealer network, and in cases where the equipment is used for purposes not specifically designated; liability for the correct and safe function of the equipment transfers to the owner/user.

So they say if you don't get a ScubaPro agent or dealer to do the maintenance or repair work then liability falls on the owner/user's shoulders. I am sure the other reg manufacturers have similar policies.

By stating these things up front and posting them on the web, the manufacturers limit any liability exposure.

I hope that clears up my earlier statement. Have a great day...

Edited by shadragon, 20 March 2007 - 05:57 AM.

[jextract]

*Momentary hijaak*

I support my LDS's, but even at that, one carries ScubaPro (Jetfins), one carries Dive Rite (Regs, wing), none carries Salvo (HID, reels), none carry Halcyon (spools, p-valve, wetnotes, BP/W, backup lights), none carry DSS (wing), none carry Analox (oxygen analyzer), etc, etc.

I guess it also depends on what you mean by local as well. The example above was meaning in my town. I consdider anything within 2 hours local. So I can buy just about anything I want in the 7 shops, I use.

Two of the shops do not sell fills. One sells by the tank, which simply doesn't fly in cave country. So they don't get my support in that area. One extends credit to loyal customers (no interest) and is super easy to deal with. Three sell everything a full price, no discount even for good customers, so I limit my purchases there.

If you can get all you need at one shop, more power to ya. I wish I could do the same. It would save me a ton of running around.

Do you do all your training with the same shop?

* End hijaak *

Perrone, I'm pretty lucky here. My preferred LDS is Hollywoodivers in Universal City and they stock all the brands you mentioned, plus rebreathers, and all the training (including GUE, TDI, etc.) you could ever want. If you want to check them out online, go to http://www.hollywoodivers.com . I have nothing but the highest regard for those guys and the way they run their shop! Plus they give my students free rentals if they buy their personal gear there!!

[PerroneFord]

I am familiar with that shop and with MHK. And you were indeed correct when you said you were lucky.

Even though I have to travel a bit further, I too feel very lucky, in that I am at the heart of manufacture for a lot of that cool gear you have at your shop. Which makes it easier to get some things that fall outside the norm. Like a 3500ft reel, or a 21w can light with an 18hr burn time, or a hot-rodded scooter.

One thing I have that you don't, is 80F water 45 minutes south!

When you coming to Florida?! LOL!

[6Gill]

Just curious...protect from what sort of litigation?

Hi 6Gill... Given the reasonable and level headed legal system in the US where no one sues anyone over anything (tongue firmly in cheek there) the companies have to cover their collective a$$es. Let's say someone purchases a reg on EBay for example, then goes for a dive. The reg fails at depth and they die. Grieving relatives would naturally want to go after the manufacturer. They could go after the previous owner of the equipment, but realistically an individual is not as attractive for lawyers as they have limited funds. The reason for the failure could be any one of a dozen things, but the logo on the front is now a target for a lawsuit. Companies have cash. Companies will want to hush this up ASAP and might even settle out of court to get rid of the bad press; even if the fault was not theirs. Do you remember the McDonald's 'hot coffee spilled in lap after going through the drive thru' story and subsequent multi-million dollar payout? Here is a quote from a legal website explaining what is involved:

Product Liability Link
A product liability lawsuit involves injury caused by a defective product. A defective product is one that is not reasonably safe for its intended use. An intended use of a product includes all those uses a reasonably prudent person might make of the product, bearing in mind its characteristics, warnings and labels. (Italics added by me)

In other words, the manufacturer can be held liable if there are inadequate warnings or labels, etc. I won't post examples, there are thousands. Just search Google with the words "lawsuit equipment failure manufacturer". There are 1.1+ million web pages!

So back to SCUBA gear. I went to the ScubaPro website (not singling them out. All my regs are ScubaPro and I know their website and material better than most) and found this under their FAQ's:

ScubaPro FAQ Link
...Any SCUBAPRO UWATEC warranty is only available to the original owner/purchaser. Because it is life support equipment, we would strongly recommend that you take it to an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer, if you choose to purchase used equipment, to have it inspected. They can verify that it is in operating condition and that it is performing to SCUBAPRO UWATEC specifications. We would also advise you to follow the SCUBAPRO UWATEC recommended service and maintenance guidelines for your product.

So if you buy a ScubaPro reg second hand the warranty is void and they recommend you get it inspected and serviced. They also remind you to follow their maintenance recommendations, etc. More on another part of their site:

ScubaPro Maintenance Link
d. If the equipment is improperly serviced, or repaired by persons repaired by persons who are not part of the SCUBAPRO/UWATEC Authorized Dealer network, and in cases where the equipment is used for purposes not specifically designated; liability for the correct and safe function of the equipment transfers to the owner/user.

So they say if you don't get a ScubaPro agent or dealer to do the maintenance or repair work then liability falls on the owner/user's shoulders. I am sure the other reg manufacturers have similar policies.

By stating these things up front and posting them on the web, the manufacturers limit any liability exposure.

I hope that clears up my earlier statement. Have a great day...

Hi Simon,
You bring up some good points but not sure how they apply for a couple reasons....

1) Annasea is in Canada,your in Canada and I'm in Canada so citing US case law doesn't apply here.
2) http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm some more info on the MacDonald lawsuit
3)All the warranty does is provide the owner with parts for life(if you meet the conditions) and replacement if issues arise.So this doesn't apply to a store servicing regs(except as far as free parts are concerened)but if someone brings in a reg set for servicing will your shop turn them away if they don't have a warrenty card?
4)I agree that getting used regs inspected and following manufacture's service recomindations is never as bad idea.
5)The only way a shop opens itself up to liability is not servicing a reg properly...at this point being the first owner or the tenth owner doesn't protect the shop from the lawsuits.Just as an aside in Canada it is not neccery to be licenced to service regs.You should see some of factory reg courses taught!
6)Grey market and buying used are two different things.A shop that gives me a BS excuse about litigation stopping them from servicing my gear doesn't get my money for a number of reasons
7)So to some up I still don't see a conection between shop liability and someone buying used gear.If you can find a single case(Canada)of a manufacture and/or service place being sued because of a person buying used gear then having an issue(s) that are not a design flaw or poor servicing I'd be intrested.

It's late and I might have misunderstood so bear with me also if I wasn't clear....

[Geek]

My LDS is a ScubaPro dealer and they will service regs purchased elsewhere. However, they have had experiences where someone brought in a European market regulator. These are apparently slightly different than US regs and they were unable to get parts for it. They basically told him if he could find the parts they would be willing to service it. The owner had purchased the reg over the Internet. I don't know what he did with it afterward.

[shadragon]

1) Annasea is in Canada,your in Canada and I'm in Canada so citing US case law doesn't apply here.

Oops. Didn't realize you were in the Great White North. Well, the US does have some rather interesting law and liability cases so it is easier to find case law. Few Examples here... They make more colourful examples than the typical Canadian legal case like this one. Plus, most of the divers on here are US based (Not that there is anything wrong with that). I could have used a few Air Farce Big Bobby Clobber and Timbit references, but they would have not know what I was talking about, eh...

Ok, the original thread was about buying regs. If you buy new through an authorized dealer then you will get parts for life and replacements as you mentioned. Personally, I have gotten about $500 in free parts, labour and warranty replacements up to this point on my dive gear. Camera strobe, depth gauge, compass, etc. If I had bought them second hand then that would have been an out of pocket expense. If you take a second hand reg to a shop then expect to pay full whack for parts and service. That was just to make the point that a "deal" on a used reg, may not be such a deal in the long term, that's all. Grey market products are defined as those items sold outside of normal distribution channels by companies which may have no relationship with the producer of the goods. They are new products, but not through an authorized retailer. So whether it is grey market or used the above applies equally as defined by the manufacturers.

As for the litigation issues, companies in the US do have to worry about that and they make allowances for it. It may not be that bad on this side of the 49th parallel, but we live with the consequences. It is not a shop problem, it is a manufacturer one as I detailed earlier. If the shop fails to service properly then yes they can be held accountable. I tried to stay away from specific examples as I am not a lawyer and don't have the expertise to get into that granular detail.

As for your being in North Vancouver, I am not jealous, I am not jealous... OK, I am jealous...

[6Gill]

As for your being in North Vancouver, I am not jealous, I am not jealous... OK, I am jealous...

At least your on a coast...imagine living in Manitoba!

[shadragon]

At least your on a coast...imagine living in Manitoba!

Went to Regina to visit a good buddy of mine last year. Would not want to live out in that region... Far too hilly...

Edited by shadragon, 22 March 2007 - 05:27 AM.

[annasea]

As for your being in North Vancouver, I am not jealous, I am not jealous... OK, I am jealous...

At least your on a coast...imagine living in Manitoba!

You let *my* (albeit former) Prairies be! Why, Winnipeg even has a dive shop! (It's within walking distance from my dad's place... next time I visit him, I'll be sure to visit it.)

[shadragon]

You let *my* (albeit former) Prairies be! Why, Winnipeg even has a dive shop! (It's within walking distance from my dad's place... next time I visit him, I'll be sure to visit it.)

I have been in Regina, The Peg, and even Cold Lake, Alberta (Very appropriately named BTW) for several months of occupancy total. So I have a fairly good idea about what is out there. Just could not see myself living in that region. Good beef and cheap oil, but that is about it. I need the scent of sea water every now and then...

So given that I would need to limit myself to one of the two coasts. Yes, I know there is a third, but there is no dive shop in Tuktoyaktuk or Iqualuit (Been to both of those places too...) and even if there was it would take a lot of convincing to get me there. I hear there is a woman behind every tree though...

[cmt489]

At least your on a coast...imagine living in Manitoba!

Went to Regina to visit a good buddy of mine last year. Would not want to live out in that region... Far too hilly...

LMAO! And did you watch his dog run away for days?

I also grew up on the prairies and went back for law school. Let's just say I don't have any plans to return in this lifetime!

[annasea]

Well, thanks to everyone's help due to this thread, not only have I decided between new and used, I've also selected regs!

So on to the next topic found here. (It's fun having a newbie on board, isn't it?)

[shadragon]

Well, thanks to everyone's help due to this thread, not only have I decided between new and used, I've also selected regs!

Whoa there kiddo... What did you decide on? Inquiring minds want to know...