98 replies to this topic

[JimG]

It's been a pretty bad month or so for diving fatalities in Florida - three on the Spiegel Grove, and then three separate fatalities in caves. Based on the information that has been released so far, it seems that all these incidents could have been prevented if the divers had followed the basic rules and safety protocols of their training.

Please folks - let's be careful out there.

[pir8]

If these guys were truly wreck certified/trained, the violated their traning. For starters they didn't run a line. It's a shame. The current isn't always there, sometimes it is nice and calm.

Old school wreck divers never ran a line due to risk of entanglement. Also there was concern of lines getting cut on sharp edges. They used a memorization technique only going in so far for each penetration. This doesn't mean I advocate this method, only acknowledgeing that it exists. By the same token I am not saying it is a bad thing either.

[PerroneFord]

Old school divers didn't use BCs, did deep air, and all sorts of other things we've gotten away from. The old "line entanglement" excuse indicates a lack of skill and unfamiliarity.

These guys broke every major rule of penetration diving, and clearly lacked the skill to do what they were dong. Being an instructor does NOT make you ready to penetrate. Being a "trained wreck diver", does not mean you are ready to penetrate. Holding an "Advanced card", does not make you ready to penetrate.

Rigorous courses in penetration diving, and progressive experience MIGHT make you ready. At least it gives you the best chance.

My friends who race cars are fond of saying that at 150mph in a turn when the back end starts to come around, is NOT where you want to run out of talent. For these poor souls and others like them, being a** deep in the bowels of a ship or cave with your gas running low, is NOT where you want to be when your talent runs out.

[PerroneFord]

It's been a pretty bad month or so for diving fatalities in Florida - three separate fatalities in caves.

Four... Madison Blue on Friday. Guy did nothing technically wrong. Was on lead out of a local cave, buddy right behind him, pleny of gas, apparently had a heart attack. Just his time I suppose. At least it wasn't a mistake that got him.

[Cold_H2O]

From everything I have read these guys WERE NOT cave/wreck certified.. only AOW divers.
They had no business being that deep for starters and really NO business penetrating the wreck.

While this is very sad ~ I feel for the friends and families involved.

I do get angry when divers ignore basic dive safety protocal and dive so far beyond their training.
None of my dive buddies would have even dove to the sand on a single tank let alone consider a penetration.

I read that this group was on alum 80's...
I can't imagine doing that depth on a single alum 80 if my intent was to penetrate or spend time looking around.

Not to have a dive plan?? unbelievable..
To leave one diver alone outside???? again.. unbelievable..
Leave your extra tanks high up on the wreck ~ where you can't get to them in an emergency???? OH man.

I am sorry.. I have been hearing too many stories lately of divers not following common sense dive profiles.
I have been taught... Plan your dive, dive your plan..

Thanks for allowing me to rant.

Perrone ~ as always you were kinder in saying what I am feeling.

Edited by gis_gal, 18 March 2007 - 09:50 AM.

[PerroneFord]

...when penetrating a wreck, silting can cause the vis can go to zero at any time. In the book Shadow Divers, this was a constant nemisis, even for the experts.

I've seen some of these "experts" in the water. Flutter kicks don't work inside silty wrecks. Neither does getting a handhold on every bulkhead down a corridor.

[pir8]

From what I've heard, not knowing them personally, 2 were instructors with 1 a Trimix instructor. All 4 were Tech divers. Not saying what they were doing was right or wrong, just that they did have training, whether you agree with it or not they did have it.

[JimG]

Four... Madison Blue on Friday. Guy did nothing technically wrong. Was on lead out of a local cave, buddy right behind him, pleny of gas, apparently had a heart attack. Just his time I suppose. At least it wasn't a mistake that got him.

Heard about that one, but did not include it since all the evidence so far suggests it was health-related. The six that I mentioned all seem to have been caused by "diver error", however. They serve as poignant reminders that underwater can be a very unforgiving place when the necessary safety precautions are not taken.

[PerroneFord]

From what I've heard, not knowing them personally, 2 were instructors with 1 a Trimix instructor. All 4 were Tech divers. Not saying what they were doing was right or wrong, just that they did have training, whether you agree with it or not they did have it.

Have WHAT? Not ONE of those certs speaks to a qualification to penetrate anything.

[scubafanatic]

...not to appear too callous...... but in the broader perspective, does anyone have any insight into the legal/regulatory fallout from such incidents ? A triple fatality, making the national press, will be bringing all sorts of unfavorable 'attention' from self appointed do-gooders to regulate the 'fun' out of diving such wrecks.

Karl

[ScubaGypsy]

Last year I did a charter dive out to the Adolphus Busch in the lower Keys and was paired up with an instant buddy. He seemed confident and had just completed a Rescue Diver course. We made a dive plan to explore the upper deck with some light penetration which was basically a cavern situation. He was only using an alum 80 with air while I had a steel 130 with EANx-32. I also had a 30 cu ft EANx-30 pony that I typically mounted on my side but didn't feel like carrying it. Our plan was to turn when either of us hit 1200 and then do a deep stop at 50' for 2 minutes and a 15-20' safety stop for 5 minutes or more. Our planned maximum depth was 90'.

Well he seemed fine during the dive as I kept a constant eye on him and he kept signalling he was fine. After 10 minutes we were on the bow inside at 80' and I looked at his SPG and saw that he was down to 300 psi! I was still around 1800 psi so was shocked. I quickly gave him my long hose primary, took his arm and swam out of the overhead and back to the stern up line. We completed our deep stop and went up to the safety stop where upon I switched him over to a tank that was dangling from our charter boat. We stayed at the safety stop for 10 minutes and then went up. The charter DM who was on the boat had witnessed that he was on my regulator and that I switched him over. The DM jumped in to see if we were alright when we were at our safety stop and after signalling him with an OK, the DM went back up. After we reboarded, we had a discussion of the events and it turned out that he was very excited and was breathing heavy and very likely narced. The charter was thankful for my actions and ended up comping my expenses. This has been the only time that I have been in an OOA situation and I had never been as thankful for the 7' primary hose as it made the situation so much easier.

What I took away from this experience is to pay even closer attention to the instabuddy arrangements both before and during the dives. I also made a judgement error in not bringing my pony with me. I can absolutely see how these situations occur even when plans are formed.

[PerroneFord]

Tom,

In looking at your example, a penetration dive should be conducted minimally on halves. So you should have planned to make the turn at 1500psi at MINIMUM. Usually we add Rockbottom to this which for 2 of you on an AL80 coming up from nearly 100ft would have been about 600psi. That's 2100 as a turn pressure.

In overheads we do formula's to do dissimilar tanks and so forth, but really unnecessary here. When one examines what it would REALLY take to get up from 100ft on an AL80 with NO PROBLEMS, it becomes clear that the AL80 is totally unsuited to doing ANY kind of penetration whatsoever.

Out of curiousity, did either of you check your gas BEFORE you entered the ship? Typically, we do this in overheads to make sure we are on plan before we start the penetration. It is a moment of transition (OW to overhead) and we check each other at each transition to see if all is ok. Did you bubble check at 10ft? Do a Mod-S?

[Boatlawyer]

Tom,

In looking at your example, a penetration dive should be conducted minimally on halves. So you should have planned to make the turn at 1500psi at MINIMUM. Usually we add Rockbottom to this which for 2 of you on an AL80 coming up from nearly 100ft would have been about 600psi. That's 2100 as a turn pressure.

In overheads we do formula's to do dissimilar tanks and so forth, but really unnecessary here. When one examines what it would REALLY take to get up from 100ft on an AL80 with NO PROBLEMS, it becomes clear that the AL80 is totally unsuited to doing ANY kind of penetration whatsoever.

Out of curiousity, did either of you check your gas BEFORE you entered the ship? Typically, we do this in overheads to make sure we are on plan before we start the penetration. It is a moment of transition (OW to overhead) and we check each other at each transition to see if all is ok. Did you bubble check at 10ft? Do a Mod-S?

Well, with the experience they had, I doubt very much they considered this a typical overhead environment. I am wondering how they were able to access the SG in such a dangerous location when other dangerous entries were reportedly welded shut. Those accessible entries reportedly have alternate exits and cut outs. It is possible that since these divers were able to access this entry they believed it had been prepared and that they would have another way out.

Given the recent righting of the SG, I wonder whether additional entries were exposed and how and whether they were evaluated by the artificial reef program experts.

[PerroneFord]

What expereince??

I haven't seen a single shred of credible evidence that says these guys had any experience at ALL inside a wreck. We do have lots of credible evidence to the contrary, since they broke every major penetration rule in the book.

Why would they not consider this as a "typical overhead", whatever that is. Overhead is overhead. We've seen people nearly die because there was an overhead of some branches in the water. One of the primary rules of penetrating ANY ship or cave is that you absolutely cannot rely on an alternate exit. The way you came in is the way you must plan to leave. Which is where the rule of thirds was born.

The fact is, these guys could have easily died within daylight with the mistakes they made. The fact that they were in the bowels of the ship is immaterial. The entry they used doesn't matter at all. Had they run a line, and followed a reasonable gas plan, they'd likely be flying home today. In a seat, and not a box.

(Sorry to be graphic. Mods please modify if not deemed appropriate)

Well, with the experience they had, I doubt very much they considered this a typical overhead environment. I am wondering how they were able to access the SG in such a dangerous location when other dangerous entries were reportedly welded shut. Those accessible entries reportedly have alternate exits and cut outs. It is possible that since these divers were able to access this entry they believed it had been prepared and that they would have another way out.

Given the recent righting of the SG, I wonder whether additional entries were exposed and how and whether they were evaluated by the artificial reef program experts.

[DIVEAK]

What expereince??

I haven't seen a single shred of credible evidence that says these guys had any experience at ALL inside a wreck. We do have lots of credible evidence to the contrary, since they broke every major penetration rule in the book.

Why would they not consider this as a "typical overhead", whatever that is. Overhead is overhead. We've seen people nearly die because there was an overhead of some branches in the water. One of the primary rules of penetrating ANY ship or cave is that you absolutely cannot rely on an alternate exit. The way you came in is the way you must plan to leave. Which is where the rule of thirds was born.

The fact is, these guys could have easily died within daylight with the mistakes they made. The fact that they were in the bowels of the ship is immaterial. The entry they used doesn't matter at all. Had they run a line, and followed a reasonable gas plan, they'd likely be flying home today. In a seat, and not a box.

(Sorry to be graphic. Mods please modify if not deemed appropriate)

Well, with the experience they had, I doubt very much they considered this a typical overhead environment. I am wondering how they were able to access the SG in such a dangerous location when other dangerous entries were reportedly welded shut. Those accessible entries reportedly have alternate exits and cut outs. It is possible that since these divers were able to access this entry they believed it had been prepared and that they would have another way out.

Given the recent righting of the SG, I wonder whether additional entries were exposed and how and whether they were evaluated by the artificial reef program experts.

Right on PerroneFord. Your post is exactly right and not at all controversial. If a Buddy Team does not have the skills and training required to understand the rules, to calculate and agree on a gas plan and to run and manage line then they do not belong in a OH environment. And doing dives on air is a less than optimal choice in the first place. Especially in a technical environment. It takes a big committment (years) to obtain the training necessary to qualify for this kind of diving. There are however, lots of divers out there who have done it and survived and therefore, they believe that they can do it. They don't know or are unwilling to admit that they are not skilled, just lucky. Having logged lots of OW dives does not qualify a diver for this type of diving.
DiveAK