44 replies to this topic

[WreckWench]

Here is an interesting question.

I've heard many boat captains refuse to allow a diver with doubles on or a stage bottle for fear that they will 'dive a dive that is beyond recreational limitations or beyond what the boat is comfortable with etc.' In other words if you have the gear I have to assume you will dive outside certain limits.

OTOH...if you carry such gear you may be doing so for practice, for redundancy, OR you may be doing so in order to do a more agressive, extreme or technical dive.

Now the question is being raised whether boat captains should place limits on what kind of dives that divers can make i.e. no penetration dives for example.

My question is how do you enforce such a thing and do we really want too?

I think that if you force a boat operator to limit the dives you can do the easiest way for them to do that is to limit the gear you can take on a dive. Sort of like some of the springs not allowing you to take lights on the dives...if you can't see you won't be as tempted to go into the cave/cavern system.

What do you all think? And I know there is no correct answer but it is a good question as many of these ideas currently prevail in the industry.

[PerroneFord]

The cave/cavern scenario is really quite different to the boat issue. In the cave/cavern scenario, if you have the training, you are allowed to carry the gear. The site (really only Ginnie and managed state parks) is simply enforcing the training organizations rules.

Where this tends to go overboard is at Ginnie in the Devils run where a cave diver and an OW diver cannot enter the water if the cave diver is dressed for cave. For example, if I was with a girlfriend and she was an OW diver, and was waiting for me to finish a cave dive before she got in the 15ft deep portion with me, I would have to exit, remove my reels, lights, AND double tanks, then re-enter the water to dive with her. At the state parks, I simply would have to remove my reels and lights.

It seems the boat operators are preventing people with requisite training, from carrying gear that they feel COULD be used to do dives within their training. To me, this is a different scenario. I will not book trips with operators who don't allow me to take gear that makes me feel safe. If my personal safety concerns are trumped by their rules, they don't need my money.

Similarly, I give Ginnie Springs very little of my money now because of their policies. And I gave the manager an earful the last time I was there. It was a good back and forth discussion but she is aware of how asinine the rules are. I asked her, so what is the point of making me take off my tanks if I have no lights or reel? And I going to crawl into the cave in the dark and feel my way around? Ginnie costs $30 per day to dive. An annual state park pass costs $40. Guess where I now spend my time.

[Walter]

I don't need a baby sitter. I just want a boat ride to and from the dive site. I understand the boat has a schedule to keep, so I do understand if the captain doesn't want me to make a two hour dive. If it doesn't relate to a reasonable schedule (limiting dives to 1 hours is really pushing it, IMO, with being reasonable) it's none of their business what I do when I'm underwater. What equipment I do or do not take is none of their business. If I do or do not penetrate a wreck is none of their business. How deep I go is none of their business. If I do or do not enter deco is none of their business.

[ScubaHawk]

The boat owner has a right to place whatever rules he/she wants (within legal limits). It's their boat. I have to right to not go on that boat.

[ScubaDadMiami]

You are the boat captain, and you set the rules. I just want to know what they are before I book my trip so that I can make the decision whether or not to travel aboard your vessel to the dive site. That does not mean changing the rule as I show up to the dock or after departure. Give me a chance to understand what you expect, and then give me the chance to accept or to move on without booking your trip.

This being said, I will not dive aboard boats that tell me how to dive my dive or what equipment I can carry. I cross any boat off of my list that tries to do so. The only reasonable limitation I can understand is a time limitation having to do with returning to the dock to pick up the next fare, etc.

[Walter]

The boat owner has a right to place whatever rules he/she wants (within legal limits). It's their boat. I have to right to not go on that boat.

I agree as long as those rules are made clear at the time of the booking. OTOH, if nothing was mentioned when the trip was booked, they have no right to change the rules once you're on the boat.

[finGrabber]

limiting dives to 1 hours is really pushing it, IMO, with being reasonable

are you advocating dives under 1 hour or if you and I can dive for, say, an hour and 20 mins that we should be allowed to do that?

[dustbowl diver]

Finnie,

Can I dive with you and Walter for 80 minutes???

[finGrabber]

Finnie,

Can I dive with you and Walter for 80 minutes???

For you -- of course!!

be prepared to see what "natural in the water" really means -- that describes Walter

[dustbowl diver]

Finnie,

Can I dive with you and Walter for 80 minutes???

For you -- of course!!

be prepared to see what "natural in the water" really means -- that describes Walter

Ahh yes....... I recall 2 dives in the Keys and that great Flower garden trip in '05 with Yoda and with you of course!!!

[drbill]

Our boat does not limit what a diver can bring or how they can dive (within reason). We have everything from OW students to tech divers with doubles and multiple stage bottles. Limiting dive times to a reasonable amount is understandable if the boat is going out for a three tank, three dive site trip. A minimum of an hour dive is what I'd consider fair (even though I've gone 2 hr 46 min on my single HP120).

At least in our waters the captain generally determines what is appropriate. I agree with Walter that any imposed limits should be outlined at booking time (but may require that the diver be responsible and ask if they are diving outside the "norm" for recreational divers). Changes in the rules may occur in the event of unexpected water or weather conditions at a dive site.

[ScubaHawk]

The boat owner has a right to place whatever rules he/she wants (within legal limits). It's their boat. I have to right to not go on that boat.

I agree as long as those rules are made clear at the time of the booking. OTOH, if nothing was mentioned when the trip was booked, they have no right to change the rules once you're on the boat.

I agree, if they start changing the rules, I start changing the game. "Let's play 'Mutiny on the Bounty'"

[Brinybay]

In my experience it's usually established at the time of booking your level of experience and what kind of dives you want to do. I've never heard of a boat telling you on the day of the dive that you can't take certain gear with you.

[DandyDon]

In my experience it's usually established at the time of booking your level of experience and what kind of dives you want to do. I've never heard of a boat telling you on the day of the dive that you can't take certain gear with you.

Ever had a charter ask you if you were diving a Rebreather? I haven't. but I have seen a Rebreather diver turned away.

I've dived off of boats that didn't care if you went into Deco, but most seem intent on not allowing that and the subsequent risks. If a diver gets bent or otherwise injured, the captain has to do a lot more to care for the diver. Have 3 get themselves killed on the same dive and CNN will broadcast it for days - with your boat's name associated with the accident.

I think if the diver plans to dive beyond Recreational limits, he'd better be asking about those at the time of booking.

Edited by DandyDon, 20 March 2007 - 04:22 PM.

[Walter]

Kim, I can live with a one hour time limit on a dive, but I'm not thrilled with it. I'm happy to limit my dive to an hour and a half to help with the schedule. I've seen some captains try to limit dives to less than an hour. I'm not happy with that. BTW, thanks for the compliment.

Bill, my longest dive was 4 hours, but it was quite shallow looking for fossils. I used about 100 cu ft of air out of the 128 I was packing. I came up because I thought someone might call 911 since my flag had been in the same area for so long. Changes due to weather are not changes in the rules. Our sport is always weather dependent.

Edited by Walter, 20 March 2007 - 04:37 PM.