64 replies to this topic

[PerroneFord]

The idea of "personal space" is a curious one. In diving, many divers seem to truly desire their space. And sometimes a lot of it. In some cases, teams feel more comfortable diving quite close to each other. Sometimes it's a matter of control in the water.

With my DIR buddies, we are usually able to swim within arm's reach of each other for extended periods of time without issue. This is the positioning we try to keep. As my two regular buddies learn to dive in overheads, we'll see how this formation changes if at all. With some other buddies, they like about 8-10ft of space. Some like 20-30ft of space and I don't do anything more than basic dives with people who like that amount of space or more.

So how far do you like to be from your buddy, and does it change based on conditions (overhead, visibility, depth, etc.)

[pir8]

I don't have a good answer for you because it is a situational thing. How well do I know your diving? What viz are we diving in? Is there an overhead? Am I taking pictures? Are we doing classes? The answer will change for any number of situations.

[PerroneFord]

Ok, then give me your answers for the scenarios you listed.

I'll give some general examples.

In overheads, I am no more than a fin-kick from my buddy if I can help it. Preferable withing arm's reach.

In low vis in open water, I am close enough to get there with a fin kick or two.

In good vis in open water, generally no more than 10-15ft.

Overhead in no-viz or very low vis, it's touch contact.

[Cold_H2O]

Perrone ~ I like my buddy just off my shoulder.
I don't usually care if they are on the right or left but I want them shoulder to shoulder with me.
I prefer to have them within arms reach. It does not bother me to have a buddy bump into me while diving.

If vis is great or we are both taking pictures 5' or so is about as far away as I like them to be.

I don't like a buddy who swims above, below or behind me.
If can't reach you in a kick or two you are too far away.

I am a bit more lack in warm clear water but after so many dives in the cold dark Puget Sound waters ~ it's hard to not dive like I do in my local waters.

If I have to chase you ~ WE WILL NEVER AGAIN BE DIVE BUDDIES.[i]

I do not cave dive or do overhead environments ~ YET ~
I am sure my style will change to accomodate the new situation.

[pir8]

Ok, then give me your answers for the scenarios you listed.

I'll give some general examples.

In overheads, I am no more than a fin-kick from my buddy if I can help it. Preferable withing arm's reach.

In low vis in open water, I am close enough to get there with a fin kick or two.

In good vis in open water, generally no more than 10-15ft.

Overhead in no-viz or very low vis, it's touch contact.

I basically agree with your examples, its just hard for me to say it always has to be this way cause as soon as you do that you will run into an exception to the rule. I try to maintain flexability. I hate to admit it but if I am taking pictures I am a lousy buddy. I am basically a solo diver. But I will tell you that up front and will make other arrangements if you are not comfortable with that.

[netmage]

I depends on who I'm diving with, conditions, and the situation at hand....

If we're cruising through a cave, arms reach can be a real pain. We use lights as passive communication. If I can see their light - I know where they are. If the light goes away, or to much movement its going to trigger a looksie to chk out whats going on.... I have a strong kick, and when leading I can easily leave my buddies behind if I don't make a conscious effort to throttle back. So I tend to opt to be 2nd or 3rd. Let someone else set the pace.

21W HID's throw light quite a ways in pristine conditions, so sometimes we might be 25' in peacock. Self help really is the concept to drive home here... not relaince on a buddy. The buddy is there to assist if you have a problem - not solve it for you. If we're at a transition in the dive, setting a spool, gas switch, entry, exit, we're w/in arms reach.

If things are silty we'll naturally stick closer, or in the unfortunate event of a siltout - touch contact.

Out on the reef - it might be more if its one of my normal buddies. We're not baby sitters, we're all tech trained and understand the concept of gas planning and self help. If some dm buddies me up w/ a n00b, well, I'll chk up on them a few times during the dive just to make sure they are on top of things. It drives me nuts when some folks ride up and behind me in the blind spot.

Edited by netmage, 26 April 2007 - 07:23 AM.

[Scubatooth]

normally Im just above and behind my buddy (or the other way around) as Im normally trailing,and on a regular basis will do a roll over to check on my basis but i try to keep them with 5-10 seconds. I really depends on the conditions and the enviroment im in as this may change

when carrying a camera i normally cant even find a buddy as they don't like that i can spend up to 5-10 minutes in one spot to get a shot. So let not go there.

[dustbowl diver]

I try to stay within a couple of fin kicks. At times, we have seperated as I am taking pictures, but get back together fairly quickly.

GG,
I would love for you to chase me!!

[Latitude Adjustment]

I don't have a good answer for you because it is a situational thing. How well do I know your diving? What viz are we diving in? Is there an overhead? Am I taking pictures? Are we doing classes? The answer will change for any number of situations.

Same here, depends on the buddy and the vis. I've had newbies as buddies who I could litterly feel next to me. I've dove with other experienced photogs where we were 50 to a 100' apart. Lately my buddies have been Pocohantas and DRCKW, Pocohantas is a few kicks away and DRCKW stays alot closer

[PerroneFord]

Interesting replies thus far. I'll share something from the WKPP. In discussing a dive that went badly, the lead diver (George Irvine) was discussing protocol for how close the team dives. Mind you these guys are on rebreathers, with double 121s, are diving with scooter and carrying two spare scooters as well as multiple stage tanks, are regulars in the Guniess book of World Records for their cave diving exploration, and have been diving together for over 10 years.

In the description of the dive at one point, George describes getting his thigh pocket caught on JJ's light. They are literally in physical contact, in the cave. What's interesting to me about it, is that these two accomplished more cave exploration in their years together than nearly anyone in the modern era. There is zero time looking for a buddy so they are able to just put the hammer down and go as far as possible. Problems are "team problems". There is no "self help" and there is no "buddy reliance". There are simply team problems and team solutions.

I remember doing a dive with a CCR diver last summer and staying about an arms length away from him. He actually asked me to move further away as he felt I was too close. So I gave him about 40ft of space to work with. At one point during the dive, he went vertical and started fooling with his breathing loop. I was watching him, and when I saw this, I was down there in a flash, reg in hand, ready to donate. He didn't need my assistance as he was just clearing the moisture from the loop, but I guess he felt like I was babysitting him.

So this question has always intrigued me.

[pir8]

Most people don't dive with the "Team" mentality. Instead most people are diving to see things, without an overall objective other than to take pictures or nab that bug or whatever. But not to be part of a team even though they have a buddy. Totally different mindset.

[ev780]

I do almost exclusively warm, clear, recreational, vacation diving. Same ocean is usually good enough. I usually keep someone in sight in the HIGHLY unlikely event of an equipment failure I can get some air.

Fred

[Cold_H2O]

Dusty ~ If I have to chase you that eliminates you from being a dive buddy again.


A question for those that do the "same ocean" thing
What happens if an issue does arise????
If you are 30 or more feet away doing your own thing..
how can you see your "buddy" signaling you that they need assistance?

In Puget Sound it is very common to use our lights to signal each other.
I have had a few buddies that I almost have to hit with my light to get their attention.
Not my definition of being a "there" for your buddy.

If for any reason I have an issue I expect my buddy to be there to assist.
Otherwise I should just be out solo diving.
I have never had an OOA issue but I have had a few buddies who didn't give me the correct numbers when I ask about their air.
I have had to share more than once.
(Yes a lecture was given once we broke the surface)

[PerroneFord]

Most people don't dive with the "Team" mentality. Instead most people are diving to see things, without an overall objective other than to take pictures or nab that bug or whatever. But not to be part of a team even though they have a buddy. Totally different mindset.

I agree. Diving with an "objective" is actually something I hear discouraged in OW courses. I've seen literature that says as much. In light of some of the recent fatalities, I wonder about the choices to eschew objective diving, even if the objective is as simple as "to take 10 good pictures of this reef".

I wonder sometimes as I read the reports if the diver(s) in fact understood the dangers and risks associated with their endeavors. I wonder if those who are content to seperate by 20, 30, or more feet, have ever exhaled, taken the reg out of their mouth, and swam to a buddy who was not expecting them and tried to get an air share done. We had to do this in cave class, and it was SOBERING. The second time I had to do it, we were 400ft back in Peacock cave, and my buddy was swimming quickly away from me when I was hit with an OOA. I took the reg out, and had to swim what was about the length of a pool and initiate the share. By the time I got there, I could NOT give a sign for being out of air, I simply took her reg from her.

I asked a similar question of others shortly after taking my class, and I was hoping to get a good cross-section of responses here from different kinds of divers. Seems to be going well so far.

[PerroneFord]

I do almost exclusively warm, clear, recreational, vacation diving. Same ocean is usually good enough.

Out of curiousity, have your tested this? If not, might I suggest using the test I do?

At exactly 30 minutes into your dive, take your reg out of your mouth, and signal OOA to your buddy. Use whatever method is common. Do not announce to your buddy that you will be doing this. If you normally carry a light with you, use that to signal your buddy. If you don't then obviously you have to signal a different way. Do not swim to your buddy, because in an emergency, you may not be able to. You might be caught in some fishing line, or you may have a severe cramp. The object is to simulate some underwater emergency and see how long it takes your buddy to notice.

In one instance it took my buddy just over 4 minutes to realize I was not with her, and to get back to me. I had never entered the water in that instance. I was standing right where I was when she entered the water. In another instance it was over 5 minutes before another diver realized I was not there.

Had I had an OOA emergency, I would have surely drown in both cases. Perhaps your buddies are more attentive, and I hope for your sake they are. But I would encourage everyone who reads this to try it randomly with your dive buddies and just take note. My regular dive buddies and I shoot for 10 seconds or less to respond to unannounced OOA's and we test each other regularly and randomly. Usually during task loading times like monitoring ascents, or doing reel tie-offs.