64 replies to this topic

[Latitude Adjustment]

I do almost exclusively warm, clear, recreational, vacation diving. Same ocean is usually good enough.

Out of curiousity, have your tested this? If not, might I suggest using the test I do?

On an SD Cozumel trip with a new light weight BP we were doing our safety stop and I wanted to do a weight check but I still had 1800psi so I had my 2nd out freeflowing and my primary freeflowing between breaths trying to get down to 500psi. No one came over, I guess I just didn't look like I needed help.

[PerroneFord]

Which is another good point. I ended up taking 3 days of CCR class because I dive with CCR divers. It is not always readily apparent when they need help! The unit makes no bubbles normally, so seeing a CCR diver with no bubbles coming out is normal. However, it could also mean they've gone "to sleep" from hypercapnia or hypoxia.

The scary thing is in either instance, since they would not be metabolizing oxygen, they'd float there.

I wonder if most OW divers would even realize if a techincal diver with all that gear on, would realize the diver is in trouble unless the diver was thrashing around.

Learning to recognize when other divers are in trouble, or about to be in trouble, is a learned skill. Seeing someone about to get themselves wrapped up in some line, or watching someone on ascent who hasn't vented their BC, or watching someone about to switch onto a pony tank when they haven't opened the valve, etc. are all things we should notice, but sometimes don't.

[netmage]

A question for those that do the "same ocean" thing
What happens if an issue does arise????
If you are 30 or more feet away doing your own thing..
how can you see your "buddy" signaling you that they need assistance?

In Puget Sound it is very common to use our lights to signal each other.
I have had a few buddies that I almost have to hit with my light to get their attention.
Not my definition of being a "there" for your buddy.

If for any reason I have an issue I expect my buddy to be there to assist.
Otherwise I should just be out solo diving.
I have never had an OOA issue but I have had a few buddies who didn't give me the correct numbers when I ask about their air.
I have had to share more than once.

When viz if 50-60', signaling 30' isn't an issue... In Peacock - we might have 100'... In the PNW where viz might be signifcantly less - obviousy a comfortable zone would be significantly less. I've done my fair share of gilboa quarry dives where 10' was the limit... It also ties into our tech training and situational awareness. Part of that is having vision and forethough to know that people might be signaling you and to be attentive.

In my initial tech training, I was flashing a teammate across the mask to get his attention - nothing - blank stare. I eventually used my backup light and bonked him on the head. What's funny is the instructor caught the whole thing on video... Needless to say - he failed the class.

Just cuz I'm not activly leashed to my buddy dosn't mean I don't know where he is and his status....

OOA (as in carelessly running out of gas) is unacceptable and is a sign of poor dive planning. You do that - and I won't be your buddy...

I've had to ask a buddy to double check his calc of thirds after sufacing at olsen sink.... If he didn't get it right - I was going to make him climb out and walk back.

One of my first OW dives in Lake Michigan I experienced a free flow at depth, I had a massive tank, plenty of air, and I could breathe through it. I signaled my buddy from 10-15', showed him what was going on, we did an air share and a controlled ascent. It thawed when we hit the thermocline and I swore off ScubaPro and been diving Apeks ever since..

[annasea]

Perrone ~ I like my buddy just off my shoulder.
I don't usually care if they are on the right or left but I want them shoulder to shoulder with me.
I prefer to have them within arms reach. It does not bother me to have a buddy bump into me while diving.<snip>

::sigh:: My dream buddy! (Almost. )

Before I was certified, I had it drilled into my head that one's dive buddy should be no further than an arm length's away. But once I was certified and did dives off of FL's east coast, my guide/babysitter didn't want me that close -- especially since I kept getting tangled up in her line. Regardless, I just wasn't comfortable being further away. Sure, she could easily reach me with a fin kick or two, but as a new diver, I worried about attracting her attention in case something went wrong.

[overseas]

In the open water I keep a buddy on the same sight. But that is only if we are staying in rec. limits. If we are deep, going into deco, or anything like that a few fin kicks away is good for me. In the caves we keep about that same spacing but it does change according to the circumstances. Bad vis and we tighten up, a tight passage where we can turn easy we get very tight. For me I prepare myself to get myself out of the dive if something should happen. I know that if I extrued an o-ring at the tank neck and I have no one to give me gass, chances are I am screwed. But I am not alone, there is someone that I can get to/get to me in one breath hold. Trust me, you can hold your breath a long time if you need to. There is a risk that assumed with everything we do. It is just a matter of what you are willing to accept. I have assumed many risks including solo cave diving w/an AL 80 for a buddy. This is all a personal choice. I know that if I have a reg failure I will go to my back up. If I cant shut it off, I can isolate it and breath it dry till I go to my back up and then on to my Buddy bottle. The point of my rambling is that everyone should talk about it with there buddy and dive the way that makes you feel comfortable and gets you out of the water. By the way, in rec limits you should be able to "Blow and Go". I tried it from 130 feet before...not the smartest thing I have done but I showed the DM it could be done. I was wearing my set of Pressed 120's too!! Alright, I am rambling it must be time for bed...Perrone, Forget being dry for a few weeks.... I am itching to cram my but in a whol eI haent been in yet!!

[Cold_H2O]

::sigh:: My dream buddy! (Almost. )

Annasea ~ If you ever want to dive your local waters I will be happy to buddy up and I will give you as much space as you desire.


If my buddy wants more space I am ok with giving a little.
I have unfortunately dove with a few "buddies" who think that "same ocean" is close enough.
That doesn't work well in the water I dive ~ Cold, dark, deep, with killer currents at times.
I am a skilled enough diver that I am comfortable being "alone" on a dive.
I prefer to dive with a buddy.

I have a few regular buddies that I dive with often and we know each others strengths and weaknesses.
We all take photos so staying together works best for us when we are critter hunting.
We are all very good with paying attention to each other and returning light signals.

I have also had more than a few dives with new divers or poor dive buddies.

What is more important than how far is your buddy is having an understanding of where you both will be during a dive.

If 3 feet is the agreed distance and shoulder to shoulder is the formation.
You need to make sure you stay there.
That tends to be my biggest issue with a new dive buddy.

[drbill]

Hmmm, one buddy is 90 and the other 75 miles away most of the time when I'm diving.

Seriously, as a solo diver it is not an issue for me. When I do dive with a buddy it depends greatly on how well I know their skills level, etc. My regular buddies who image may be 50 ft away since we're both focused on our filming and have redundant equipment. Non-imaging buddies generally stay much closer (10-15 ft), although a well positioned buddy may be within 5 feet.

The issue of buddy proximity is quite different for divers who image. A buddy who stays too close and has poor bouyancy skills or fins a lot can really stir up the sediments and ruin my filming.

[ev780]

I do almost exclusively warm, clear, recreational, vacation diving. Same ocean is usually good enough.

Out of curiousity, have your tested this? If not, might I suggest using the test I do?

At exactly 30 minutes into your dive, take your reg out of your mouth, and signal OOA to your buddy. Use whatever method is common. Do not announce to your buddy that you will be doing this. If you normally carry a light with you, use that to signal your buddy. If you don't then obviously you have to signal a different way. Do not swim to your buddy, because in an emergency, you may not be able to. You might be caught in some fishing line, or you may have a severe cramp. The object is to simulate some underwater emergency and see how long it takes your buddy to notice.

In one instance it took my buddy just over 4 minutes to realize I was not with her, and to get back to me. I had never entered the water in that instance. I was standing right where I was when she entered the water. In another instance it was over 5 minutes before another diver realized I was not there.

Had I had an OOA emergency, I would have surely drown in both cases. Perhaps your buddies are more attentive, and I hope for your sake they are. But I would encourage everyone who reads this to try it randomly with your dive buddies and just take note. My regular dive buddies and I shoot for 10 seconds or less to respond to unannounced OOA's and we test each other regularly and randomly. Usually during task loading times like monitoring ascents, or doing reel tie-offs.

I feel very strongly in always being able to self rescue given my preferred diving stated above. Most of the buddies I dive with I met 10 minutes before the dive. (The curse of the Single Diver) I have not been trained nor do I have any interest in caves and/or wreck penetration and I hate cold dark water. I am sure the porcedures and rules are different and I respect that. I will not wait for someone to "rescue me" as you discuss above. My life is in my hands. If I run out of air then that is kind of a Darwinian correction that I deserve. Regs just don't fail and if they do they do not lock up. They free flow or blow a gasket or gradually shut down. In either event a good amount of warning before you are sucking on a airless reg. If that happens bolt for the nearest person or head for the surface.

I present this to spur discussion and have some fun with this topic. We all have to guage our risk tolerance. We all live somewhere between "never leave the porch" and "running with the big dogs" and I am just offering up what I see in real life. I am quite sure that there are divers who always have their snorkel and are never more that arm's reach from their buddy but they are not on any of the dive boats I have been on recently.

Fred

Edited by ev780, 27 April 2007 - 03:56 PM.

[PerroneFord]

I too feel very strongly about self-rescue. As do my regular buddies. However, the benefit to diving the way we do (in my opinion) is that we don't "have to" do self rescue, it is merely our option. I'll give an example.

Two buddies and I were doing a dive in a popular spot called "Manatee Springs". At this spot there is a cave entrance with wicked flow coming out. We decided to take turns seeing if we could simply poke our head into the hole. It was like swimming into the end of a fire hose. One of my buddies tried first. The third buddy and myself positioned ourselves at his flank, each with our hands on our regulators in case the flow knocked the regulator out of the lead diver's mouth. Now he was perfectly capable of grabbing his backup around his neck, but as "good buddies", it was our responsibility to prepare ourselves to assist should we be needed. In the end, we were not needed, and each diver took a turn at trying this little stunt. We were all comforted by the fact that if anything were to go wrong, we had help right next to us.

In cruising in the caves, our lights play together. In a team of three, our lights form a triangle, or with four a diamond. If one of the lights should suddenly fall out of place, we know to check on our buddy. There is no need to turn around, crane our neck, or slow down to see if anyone needs assistance. We know immediately if there is a problem. When doing valve drills, we signal our buddies, and begin. Each buddies is about 4ft away, in front of the diver doing the shutdowns, with their hands on their regs, ready to donate should assistance be required.

In the quiet of the caves, we can hear each other breathe. We become in tune with the breathing rythm of the other divers and we know if someone's breathing pattern quickens, or suddenly isn't there when it should be. Again, we try to keep emergency response inside 10 seconds, and usually shorter than that.

These are not "rules" we dive by. No one has told us to dive this way, though this kind of awareness and buddy assistance is fundamental to the DIR concept. But we adopted this idea of simply being there for each other and knowing we can put our lives in the hands of each other. It's a huge mentality shift that people tend to mistake for reliance on someone else. Nothing could be further from the truth.

As I stated previously, this is problematic for most diving buddies. The concept of "team diving" is not accepted, and is seen by some as a hindrance. I am enjoying hearing how other people approach their diving. Everything from solo, to same ocean, to tight buddy groups.

Great discussion so far.

I feel very strongly in always being able to self rescue given my preferred diving stated above. Most of the buddies I dive with I met 10 minutes before the dive. (The curse of the Single Diver) I have not been trained nor do I have any interest in caves and/or wreck penetration and I hate cold dark water. I am sure the porcedures and rules are different and I respect that. I will not wait for someone to "rescue me" as you discuss above. My life is in my hands. If I run out of air then that is kind of a Darwinian correction that I deserve. Regs just don't fail and if they do they do not lock up. They free flow or blow a gasket or gradually shut down. In either event a good amount of warning before you are sucking on a airless reg. If that happens bolt for the nearest person or head for the surface.

I present this to spur discussion and have some fun with this topic. We all have to guage our risk tolerance. We all live somewhere between "never leave the porch" and "running with the big dogs" and I am just offering up what I see in real life. I am quite sure that there are divers who always have their snorkel and are never more that arm's reach from their buddy but they are not on any of the dive boats I have been on recently.

Fred

[Dive_Girl]

I like my buddy just off my shoulder.
I don't usually care if they are on the right or left but I want them shoulder to shoulder with me.
I prefer to have them within arms reach. It does not bother me to have a buddy bump into me while diving.

If vis is great or we are both taking pictures 5' or so is about as far away as I like them to be.

I don't like a buddy who swims above, below or behind me.
If can't reach you in a kick or two you are too far away.

I am a bit more lack in warm clear water but after so many dives in the cold dark Puget Sound waters ~ it's hard to not dive like I do in my local waters.

If I have to chase you ~ WE WILL NEVER AGAIN BE DIVE BUDDIES.

This is why we dive well together. In the PNW, I also like my buddy off my shoulder, arms length away is nice when viz allows, signal with lights when lights are deployed/applicable...etc. I really tend to stick to my dive buddies up here.

In warm water, I tend to be a bit more relaxed as long as I am within a few quick fin kicks to a buddy (which can be any when diving in a group/team). However, I am hindered in rolling around looking for a dive buddy because I easily get water in my ears that result in nasty infections, so I need to also be able to easily see a buddy or my buddy's light.

It is so nice when you find divers that click like that automatically, like I did with a cute German in Palau. He joined us about 1/3 into our trip and it was immediate on our first dive that our diving styles, critter interests, and air consumption just clicked. Hard to chat with above water, but underwater I'd have married the guy.

[Cold_H2O]

This is why we dive well together. {snip}

I like diving with you.
I have found a few buddies that dive like I do and diving with them is a dream.

I don't enjoy having to roll around and look for my buddy.
with my old drysuit {neoprene neck seal} I would end up popping the seal and getting a nice splash of cold water down my front...
A wet cold gis_gal is not a happy gis_gal.

[dustbowl diver]

Dusty ~ If I have to chase you that eliminates you from being a dive buddy again.

I guess this means we'll only dive together in my dreams!!!

[captsteve]

Not very.......LOL,,,,

[drbill]

At exactly 30 minutes into your dive, take your reg out of your mouth, and signal OOA to your buddy. Use whatever method is common. Do not announce to your buddy that you will be doing this. If you normally carry a light with you, use that to signal your buddy. If you don't then obviously you have to signal a different way. Do not swim to your buddy, because in an emergency, you may not be able to. You might be caught in some fishing line, or you may have a severe cramp. The object is to simulate some underwater emergency and see how long it takes your buddy to notice.

In one instance it took my buddy just over 4 minutes to realize I was not with her, and to get back to me. I had never entered the water in that instance. I was standing right where I was when she entered the water. In another instance it was over 5 minutes before another diver realized I was not there.

Had I had an OOA emergency, I would have surely drown in both cases. Perhaps your buddies are more attentive, and I hope for your sake they are. But I would encourage everyone who reads this to try it randomly with your dive buddies and just take note. My regular dive buddies and I shoot for 10 seconds or less to respond to unannounced OOA's and we test each other regularly and randomly. Usually during task loading times like monitoring ascents, or doing reel tie-offs.

This is a good test, Perrone Ford. I've found over the decades that almost all of my dive buddies fail it. If the test were done on me, I'd fail it as well. It points out the weakness of the buddy system as it applies to most real world recreational diving situations. And it's one of many reasons why I dive solo most of the time and rely on my redundancy (which, admittedly, would be of no use should I have a heart attack or other serious problem).

I observe a lot of divers in our dive park who aren't even aware I'm within a few feet of them, and are not even looking at their own buddy as I film. It is amazing that there are (relatively) so few incidents here.

Those of you who do higher risk diving like caves and wreck penetrations almost always have an edge on the average recreational diver. You and your buddy are very attentive to the risks, and the need for close buddy connection and teamwork. Most recreational divers would benefit from a more attentive buddy relationship... especially in the event of an incident!

[PerroneFord]

Those of you who do higher risk diving like caves and wreck penetrations almost always have an edge on the average recreational diver. You and your buddy are very attentive to the risks, and the need for close buddy connection and teamwork. Most recreational divers would benefit from a more attentive buddy relationship... especially in the event of an incident!

I do not say these things to cast aspersions on recreational divers. The previously mentioned diver who took 5 minutes to realize I was not there, was a full cave certified diver. Two weeks ago I was doing a cave dive with another full cave certified diver. I signaled him with my light for over 20 seconds and he never noticed. I will never dive with him again.

The mindset of "team" is foreign to nearly all divers, and the concept of buddy is very loosely defined. In certain circumstances this is not so problematic. In some cases it can be fatal. Back in January or February, a young man, a student at the Uniersity of Florida, was doing a very simple dive with a couple of his friends. They were in Manatee Springs state park. Three of them entered the cavern zone. It's a nice cavern, large, and generally with visibility of 50-100+ feet. His buddies were likely no more than 50-75ft away. He ran out of air, and drown. He was not in a cave, he was not solo, and he was within eyesight of two of his buddies.

Last year, on an open water dive, a rebreather diver died within visual distance of his "buddy". This gentleman was an experienced diver, a long time instuctor, and well regarded. And yet, within eyesight of his buddy, he drown in less than 100ft of water.

It's easy to talk about being a good buddy. It's easy to say that I am "close enough". But when the brown stuff hits the fan, the buddy who is within arms reach becomes a great comfort, and the one you can see, but can't get to offers little comfort. Of course, I am a diver with very limited experience, and many here have tons more experience than I do. These comments are simply my view from my perspective as a new(ish) diver, but one who prefers to operate within the "unified team" construct.