32 replies to this topic

[ScubaDadMiami]

There is no "perfect" unit on the market. In almost every case (involving the major players), there is a strong point about the unit over most or all of the others. Then, you will scratch your head wondering why they also included some stupid idea into that same unit.

In the end, it becomes somewhat of a balancing act. You decide which is the most important feature you simply must have, and you narrow down your unit selection to only those units which have this component. Then, you look at the "stupid" features of the contenders, and you scratch the ones off of the list that have too many or in which the stupid component is too prominent. That usually leaves only a few units from which to select.

The good news is that the overall market is expanding, improving and maturing. More manufacturers are cooperating with each other to share and sell ideas and components. So, things just keep getting better.

You can find a related discussion to these issues (how to select your unit) by reading my recent article in Advanced Diver Magazine, "Transition to Rebreather Diving."

[hnladue]

Most people in this area are using the Inspiration. We don't have cave diving and I'm not interested in it anyhow. I will be checking out other units, but right now I don' thave access to any others. And since this training is free.... I'm not going to complain about what unit I'm being trained on!! I don't have any plans to buy one right away anyhow, so I have time to look and try before I decide.

Howard.... I still can't find that mag here anywhere!! Anychance you can scan it and send it to me?

Edited by hnladue, 01 June 2007 - 10:54 AM.

[maninthesea]

Perrone
You asked why not the meg or oroborus? I ask are you confident that there would be a continuation of support if Leon or Kevin were hit by a bus the day after you took delivery? With the insperation or optima I think there is more than likely going to be continued support for several years no matter what. Of corse I could be wrong again.
Personally I will probably end up with an optima since I have a few grand credit towards one and a close tie to the company. However it has one huge drawaback to me and that not having the option to use sorb. Kind of ties you to the microspore guys. I get sorb cheep and shipping on the cartriges would drive the costs way up. If DR ever comes out with an optional sorb scrubber then I'm in.
Or I may wait about a year for another rebreather that should be anouncing recreational unit at DEMA.
Cheers jim

[PerroneFord]

You know, I'm very glad you asked this question. It's a fair one, and it comes up rather often in the RB community. Frankly, it's often used to justify purchasing a yellow box. What I am going to say is my personal feelings and not those of my friends, employer, or anyone else...

In the RB community, continuity of product is an issue. We all know it. Whether it' Martin at yellowbox, Leon at ISC, or Kevin. These same questions were asked when Gordon died. And quite frankly, Kim has done a yeoman's job in keeping that operation going smoothly and my hat is off to her. Remember the Meg 1. With Shearwater electronics? Guess what, the Meg is still here.

I am utterly confident, with the caliber of people innovating for the Meg, that a number of people could take the project over and have success. Not the least of which is Jakub Rehacek. The quality of his work has been stunning in my opinion. Would there be hiccups? You bet. I'd personally take the risk on a Meg, with the innovation being done for it, versus the Inspo which is essentially impossible to innovate for due to CEE certification issues.

As for the Optima, it seems like a nice unit but I have been very disappointed with Dive Rite overall over the past couple of years. And lets not pretend that they haven't dropped support quickly in a number of cases for some of their products. In fact, the thing that worries me MOST about the Optima is the relationship with Farrallon and the reliance upon them. In building our Optima, I was very surprised by the rather poor build quality. Actually, to say I was surprised is not correct. I had simply hoped for something different. I am not necessarily trying to bag on Dive Rite. They have some good products. But they have released some duds recently as well and I'm just calling it like I see it. The scrubber cartridge holds some advantages, but pushes the price point per dive a bit too far for my comfort. And the benefits of it are simply not that large a gain in my opinion.

So there you have it. Dive the Boros and spend $15k, dive the yellowbox and know there will be no signifincat innovation for years down the pike, dive the Optima and hope Farrallon stays in the game, hope the electronics package holds together, and have one of the highest per-dive costs of any major unit, dive the Meg and hope Leon doesn't get hit by a truck.

Our test-mule Meg has the Golem BOV, the Golem sorb canister (currently pushing 10 hours with sofnolime), is being used in a sidemount config with a DR Nomad, and has a few other tweaks we do. I like it a LOT. None of that is possible with the Optima. None of that is possible wtih the Inspo. And honestly, none of it is possible with the Boros either. I'd like to see Kevin offer a tough Delrin case for the Boros rather than the CF composite he has now. One trip into the cave and it's a mess.

What RB are you talking about waiting on? The one OMS announced? If I've learned one thing in the RB community over the last couple of years, it's that a bird in the hand is worth 100 in the bush. I've never seen so much vaporware. DEMA means zero. Shipping product means everything.

Again, just my opinion.

Perrone
You asked why not the meg or oroborus? I ask are you confident that there would be a continuation of support if Leon or Kevin were hit by a bus the day after you took delivery? With the insperation or optima I think there is more than likely going to be continued support for several years no matter what. Of corse I could be wrong again.
Personally I will probably end up with an optima since I have a few grand credit towards one and a close tie to the company. However it has one huge drawaback to me and that not having the option to use sorb. Kind of ties you to the microspore guys. I get sorb cheep and shipping on the cartriges would drive the costs way up. If DR ever comes out with an optional sorb scrubber then I'm in.
Or I may wait about a year for another rebreather that should be anouncing recreational unit at DEMA.
Cheers jim

[ScubaDadMiami]

Jakub (Golem Gear) makes some great products. I have recently installed the Golem Bail Out Valve on my Optima, and it is tough as nails. A friend of mine tested the Golem Lola back up lights (I carry two of them), and finally shut them down after running continuously for three days on one set of batteries (didn't run down yet; just gave up on going longer)!

I pick the best of each manufacturer for a given category. I have had not just good but excellent service from Dive Rite without exception, and they are a "real" company that will be around tomorrow. If you have a problem with your rebreather, there are many companies that take six months or more for service. That counts a lot in my book.

If you dive frequently and go deeper, the Extend Air Cartridge is fairly economical though somewhat more expensive than pellet scrubber. If you don't dive often or for long enough periods of time, it is less economical. If the small difference per container of sorb is your priority, the Optima might not be the unit for you. I am quite willing to pay that difference to lower my risk of a caustic cocktail, to lower the complication of packing my scrubber on a rocking boat at sea, and for the low work of breathing associated with this unit.

Further, though I am not completely on the inside track, I can tell you that Micropore is in the process of developing a longer lasting Extend Air Cartridge. I do not know the release date. However, I am not talking about vaporware that will come out years from now. The upgrade for using it will not be expensive.

The Extend Air Cartridge is coming out all over the world now except in remote areas. By the time I get a chance to dive in those areas, I will deal with the shipping associated with the diving if I have to. I suspect that this will no longer be much of an issue in the not too distant future.

[PerroneFord]

SDM,

You've mentioned this a couple of times now. I would like to ask if you know ANYONE who dives a Meg that you are aware has had a caustic cocktail. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, or cannot happen. I've just never heard of it. So I am wondering if we are making much ado about nothnig. Certainly some units are more susceptible to this than others. I learned yesterday that the Titan has been pulled from the market for this reason.

As for the EAC becoming more economical during deeper or longer dives, I can only point to Gregg doing 6-10 hours on the Golem radial canister on a single packing of Sofnolime. To me, that's good value.

In regards to Dive Rite, people rave about their service. It's not the service that is a problem, it's that it's needed so frequently. I really think they've cut too many corners on too many products. However, some of the stuff I've seen and bought from them is really nice. Again, not bagging on Dive Rite, just saying what I've seen. ISC has been very responsive for service issues as has Jetsam. I cannot comment on others as I have no direct knowledge.

Oh, and why are you packing a canister on the boat? Maybe on a liveaboard I could see, but with 6, 8, even 10 hours available on a canister with sofnolime, it would take some doing to have to repack that thing. Honestly, if I was planning on putting more than 8-10 hours on a canister regularly, I'd get more than one.

Last thing. You installed the Golem BOV? I thought your instructor was totally against this idea?

[ScubaDadMiami]

You've mentioned this a couple of times now. I would like to ask if you know ANYONE who dives a Meg that you are aware has had a caustic cocktail.

I know of a couple of flooded units recently; two floods in two days in a row out of three divers. (I don't know how much water equals "flooded," but that was the term used by the author of "the good book" that you have quoted before. Without mentioning names, you know who I mean, right? ) Well, a flood is just one step away from a caustic cocktail. That is too much risk for me.

. . . 6-10 hours on the Golem radial canister on a single packing of Sofnolime. To me, that's good value.

That is a good value. No question about it. I routinely go with four hours on my canister. Others are going longer. Some are going significantly longer. (Their decision, their risk.) So, let's say that is perhaps a $12 to $15 difference in cost over the course of about four hours? Like I said, "the Extend Air Cartridge is fairly economical though somewhat more expensive than pellet scrubber." Now, you wouldn't use EANx or deep air on a dive where you are starting to get into the Trimix range (let's say 150 feet) just because it would be that much less expensive on the dive, would you? For me, I am willing to pay that price difference for the virtual elimination of the caustic cocktail.

In regards to Dive Rite[,] . . . some of the stuff I've seen and bought from them is really nice.

I also like much of what they manufacture. Like I said, I pick the best of each company. I also have equipment from many other companies. The Optima just happens to be one of the things I would rank up there with their best.

ISC has been very responsive for service issues as has Jetsam. I cannot comment on others as I have no direct knowledge.

Check around to see how long it takes to get service from Leon. See what people say that have to call or email. (I don't mean someone who is a good friend; try just a regular customer.)

Oh, and why are you packing a canister on the boat? Maybe on a liveaboard I could see, but with 6, 8, even 10 hours available on a canister with sofnolime, it would take some doing to have to repack that thing. Honestly, if I was planning on putting more than 8-10 hours on a canister regularly, I'd get more than one.

Actually, a live aboard is one of the things I had in mind. On the SD.com live aboard trip to the Bahamas last year, I was changing the cartridge once every day. No need to buy extra canisters when it takes all of one to two minutes to change the cartridge. This is because there is no need to blow off dust or tamp down along the way. Just pop in a new one, and you are ready to dive.

You will also find that boat captains do not exactly love it when pellet dust gets blown all over their decks. Anyone out on the deck will also have to leave the area until the dust is clear.

You installed the Golem BOV? I thought your instructor was totally against this idea?

Remember, question everyone and everything. Just because someone else does it a certain way does not mean that it is the only right way. Ask why he or she does it that way and the history behind that decision. Then, decide for yourself after you understand the concerns and weigh the risks.

I decided that I prefer having the BOV since the accounts that I read mention that a severe hypercapnia hit is such that a diver can barely function enough to turn the switch of a BOV. Many wonder if a diver taking a hit would be able to change to a regulator even when located a close distance to the mouth.

I route my BOV to my onboard gas. I use it just enough to take sanity breaths while deploying my offboard gas for bail out. This is not the way that I would route the BOV if I were using 13 or perhaps even 19 cubic foot tanks, which is typical of many other rebreathers. However, the standard Optima design uses 27 cubic foot tanks (which I will call 30 at 3,000 p.s.i.--not that I am encouraging anyone to overpump steel tanks! ). So, I have enough gas in the tanks to take a several breaths (even at 300 feet deep), to clear my head so that I am in the kind of condition to allow me to then deploy my offboard regulator. That is my game plan.

Most other units out there use smaller tanks, requiring the diver to route the gas to the offboard source on deeper dives. Just one more thing to have to unplug in an emergency IMHO. (I do like the way that Gregg has installed the inlet for the offboard gas on his Meg though. After I use my unit enough like this, I might consider adding something like that down the line. I just have to balance the benefit against the concern of another failure point and another thing to unplug.) I do not have to disconnect anything to pass off a bottle to someone in need while I retain a pretty decent reserve of gas to use with the BOV from the start.

On the negative side, even with a BOV, if you do happen to have a caustic cocktail, you will still have to bail out to your offboard regulator directly. So, I make sure to still do this drill frequently in order to keep the skill up to par.

I like having the BOV, and when I spoke to Gregg at Peacock, he noticed that we both use the Golem, and he called it "a required piece of equipment." There are a lot of people out there that feel the same way. It is a bit heavier than a standard DSV, but the trade off is worth it for me.

[PerroneFord]

Do you think we've taken this thread far enough off course yet?

I know of a couple of flooded units recently; two floods in two days in a row out of three divers. (I don't know how much water equals "flooded," but that was the term used by the author of "the good book" that you have quoted before. Without mentioning names, you know who I mean, right? ) Well, a flood is just one step away from a caustic cocktail. That is too much risk for me.

I think this is where you and I part company. I've flooded the Meg. I've been in class where all three students flooded the meg. Then did inverted stuff, loop de loops, barrell rolls, etc. And we got nothing. Not even a hint of a caustic cocktail. We poured the water out of the units after the dive. I too had been worried about this as that is always what you hear from non-CCR divers. The scary monster. After doing the pool work, I am just not worried any more. We differ in our "risk tolerance, and I don't think that is necessarily bad. It just drives us to make different choices in our gear.

ISC has been very responsive for service issues as has Jetsam. I cannot comment on others as I have no direct knowledge.

Check around to see how long it takes to get service from Leon. See what people say that have to call or email. (I don't mean someone who is a good friend; try just a regular customer.)

I have. I've watched students call up Leon because something was missing or wrong with their Megs, and I've seen how long it takes. I've seen the same from Kim. In both cases, on multiple occasions, I've seen parts arrive in 2-3 days. I can't get stuff faster from Dive Rite and they are 90 miles from me.

Oh, and why are you packing a canister on the boat? Maybe on a liveaboard I could see, but with 6, 8, even 10 hours available on a canister with sofnolime, it would take some doing to have to repack that thing. Honestly, if I was planning on putting more than 8-10 hours on a canister regularly, I'd get more than one.

You will also find that boat captains do not exactly love it when pellet dust gets blown all over their decks. Anyone out on the deck will also have to leave the area until the dust is clear.

Some sorb dusts more than others. We get quite a lot of dust from the sodasorb. Very little from the Sofnolime. I haven't used the Draeger stuff yet. And it can also be scooped which virtually eliminates dusting. You do still have to tamp it though.

Honestly, the canister simplicity battle clearly goes to the Optima. My primary concerns with the unit came with the cover and how it fastens. It just feels cheap and flimsy to me. Even the yellowbox is nicer and more positive. Small velcro strips is not how I want my RB cover to close. The Boros is nice in that it locks in. The Meg and the Kiss (sport) have no covers.

You installed the Golem BOV? I thought your instructor was totally against this idea?

Most other units out there use smaller tanks, requiring the diver to route the gas to the offboard source on deeper dives. Just one more thing to have to unplug in an emergency IMHO. (I do like the way that Gregg has installed the inlet for the offboard gas on his Meg though. After I use my unit enough like this, I might consider adding something like that down the line. I just have to balance the benefit against the concern of another failure point and another thing to unplug.) I do not have to disconnect anything to pass off a bottle to someone in need while I retain a pretty decent reserve of gas to use with the BOV from the start.

I'm still not convinced on this "bottle passing" idea. Once you get away from that, hose routing and choices become far simpler.


I do agree with you on the BOV. After working with one, I wouldn't buy or use a RB without it. Lamar should make it an option. But I spoke to Jakub last weekend, and he can't make them fast enough. Every one is pre-order right now. That is the kind of innovation I think is sorely lacking from the yellowbox.

Edited by PerroneFord, 03 June 2007 - 12:59 AM.

[ScubaDadMiami]

My primary concerns with the unit came with the cover and how it fastens. It just feels cheap and flimsy to me. . . . Small velcro strips is not how I want my RB cover to close.

I thought that the velcro cover closure strips and the tank holders, which also used velcro tie-downs, would be a weakness when I first got the unit. I never had a problem with either though. This is a moot point however. The FX no longer uses the velcro. It now uses clips to close the case, and it uses the Remora tank mounts. So, this is no longer a potential concern.

I really like the plastic cover on the Optima over the hard cases. Very streamline yet protective. Until you really tear them up, they keep looking pretty good for a long time (except the SOLAS strips, which will get beaten up in wrecks pretty quickly). The valves can easily be seen on the new version; they are not covered by the case anymore. This is not a great shot because you can't see what it looks like from the side, but you can see the valves and wheels coming from the case edge. http://www.diveritee...y/drt_1fx_7.htm. They are covered enough to keep from getting snagged while being open enough to see what is going on (and to turn the knobs).

[hnladue]

Howard, one of these days I'm gonna have to dive with you to see how your RB works!!

I like the conversation going!! Hijack away! I'm learning lots.

While assembling and deassembling the Inspiration, I liked the velcro strips that hold everything down. No rubber straps that could break. All of the hoses fit nicely together.

Here's a good question:

How the h$ll do you do the negative pressure test!!! I just could not suck hard enough to collapse the hoses!! But I did get it to hold for a long time, what I did get. oh and no comments on how bad I suck!


--Heather.

[ScubaDadMiami]

How the h$ll do you do the negative pressure test!!! I just could not suck hard enough to collapse the hoses!! But I did get it to hold for a long time, what I did get.

I do not know enough about your unit to comment. However, my general understanding, which I am guessing pretty much applies across the board to other units, is that you just want to create a negative pressure (does not need much) to see if there is a leak. You do not need to come anywhere near close enough to collapse the hoses. Perhaps what you have been told means "enough to get the hoses to contract" (meaning that the coil space contracts until the coils are touching one another) rather than "collapse" (meaning collapsing in diameter). Besides, the Inspiration is CE rated, and I believe that this requires non-collapsing hoses to qualify. So, you would need a Hoover test for that to happen.

The point behind the test is just to be able to detect if there is a leak and that all sealing surfaces and o-rings are seated properly. Some units run the test for several minutes after the user removes the gas from the loop. My Optima falls into this group. Other units (the KISS in particular) run the test for only 30 seconds or so based on the theory that long term tests might unseat or damage sealing surfaces. So, for how long to conduct the tests, positive and negative, depends on the manufacturer. After awaiting the required period specified by the manufacturer, the test passes if you do not see the hoses expanding due to gas entering the loop someplace, and if you open the DSV to hear the rush of gas entering the unit.

oh and no comments on how bad I suck!

[netmage]

Howard.. Perrone.... get a room and take this lovefest elsewhere....
Just Kidding Guys....!

-Tim (secretly wants a meg; shush - don't tell anyone....)

[ScubaDadMiami]

-Tim (secretly wants a meg; shush - don't tell anyone....)

I know where you can get a (supposedly lightly) used one right now. No waiting.

[Scubatooth]

Heather

the best of luck on your training. Im watching a group of students from the university of puerto rico that are going through rebreather training right now, and by the end of the summer will be doing normoxic and full trimix training as well.

Just from what i have seen from them so far its not as easy as it looks, but all of that hard work getting the unit ready is all worth it when you can get in the water and have a ball of sardines just swim around you like your one of them, unlike the noise OC (thats me) that had to sneak up on them only to exhale and get nailed by a few hundred sardines.

I will get to be on a rebreather, but till then i can dream.

Best of luck to you

Tooth

[fala]

Anyone who is thinking about rebreather diving should go for it!! It's a lot more work and you must be dedicated to it, but the benefits are worth it!!

--Heather.

Which option is better:

Rec --> Tech --> Rebreather

Rec --> Rebreather

Or does this 'depend on the individual and their comfort level'?