64 replies to this topic

[MissOcean]

LoL that's kinda funny. How did you do? Where were you sitting around there?

Everything worked out ok, thanks. And I was probably under the tarp most of the time. I had a yellow hat on...

Not sure! Let me know when you're going back!

[ScubaDrew]

Theres a rather large Palamino Trout that hangs out on the school bus a lot also but I didn't see him Sat or I woulda pointed him out too.

Hmm, Didn't know what that was, so I looked it up, and I saw a rather pale looking trout after the one you pointed out, perhaps that such a fish...

[pir8]

Theres a rather large Palamino Trout that hangs out on the school bus a lot also but I didn't see him Sat or I woulda pointed him out too.

Hmm, Didn't know what that was, so I looked it up, and I saw a rather pale looking trout after the one you pointed out, perhaps that such a fish...

I think the one I pointed out was a rainbow trout. There are several different species of trout in the lake.

[drbill]

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding (tenuous at best) of evolution is that it takes hundreds of years at least before genetic changes take significant effect? "Changes in allele frequency over time" is something that I have read over and over.

Highly dependent on how small/isolated a population is. While you may not affect the gene pool of an entire species, you certainly can have significant impact on small, isolated populations like those in a quarry, and possibly populations with limited gene flow and high site fidelity.

Actually according to current theory, evolution can occur over very short time spans.

[DandyDon]

Actually according to current theory, evolution can occur over very short time spans.

Theory? Wouldn't you say that antibiotic resistant bacteria and insecticide resistant insects are clear evidence of evolution? Not natural selection, but evolving as a result of the effects of mankind? Survival and procreation of the fittest or most adaptable leading to evolution of the population could be measured in a few generations, could it not...?

[ScubaDrew]

Actually according to current theory, evolution can occur over very short time spans.

Theory? Wouldn't you say that antibiotic resistant bacteria and insecticide resistant insects are clear evidence of evolution? Not natural selection, but evolving as a result of the effects of mankind? Survival and procreation of the fittest or most adaptable leading to evolution of the population could be measured in a few generations, could it not...?

Yes, but the term theory would still be applicable. Many people think that the term theory means that the concept is on shakey ground, just and idea, when in fact it is not. Gravity for example is quite well known, and demonstrable, but how we describe it is still a theory. On a side note, gravity does not explain all things that it attempts to predict, hence Relativity, special relativity, and even leaves the door open for new concepts like quantum theory and string theory, though I am sceptical of whether anyone really knows what those are... A true scientific theory like evolution or gravity is the best possible explanation supported by all the evidence, and can be used to make predictions. The fact that they tend to change to reflect new discoveries is a sign of strength.

The examples you cited vis a vie bacteria are still natural selection at work. Basically mutations to the genetic code, whether random "mistakes" or brought on by environmental pressures, will pass on through generations IF they prove to be beneficial, as the individuals will be stronger than their rival suitors (over simplified of course). Regardless of what caused the mutation, the mechanism that describes it is still natural selection.

FWIW, evolution, as in changes in a population is a fact. It is observable, predictable, and in fact is a tool used by people to our own advantage. The science of breeding animals is an example of this, a dog breeder will select for certain traits, such as temperment, or resistance to hereditary conditions like displaysia. The result is seen in the many different breeds available today. These expamples are sometimes referred to as micro evolution, or macro evolution.

The "Theory of Evolution", in over simplified terms, is nothing more than the best scientific explanation for the diversity of life on Earth, as we understand it today. It takes into consideration all the evidence we have to date, and is changed to reflect any new evidence that contradicts the predictions made from it. Our understanding of the Theory is probably most apparent in medical science. We have made leaps in our knowledge, and increased not only our lifespans, but the quality of life immensely over the past several decades.

I am sure I left out a ton of important stuff. PhD recipiants spend their whole lives studing this stuff, so a poor guy like me cant hope to explain it in a few paragraphs. Hell, I don't even understand most of it to be honest. But it is really cool stuff...

[ScubaDrew]

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding (tenuous at best) of evolution is that it takes hundreds of years at least before genetic changes take significant effect? "Changes in allele frequency over time" is something that I have read over and over.

Highly dependent on how small/isolated a population is. While you may not affect the gene pool of an entire species, you certainly can have significant impact on small, isolated populations like those in a quarry, and possibly populations with limited gene flow and high site fidelity.

Actually according to current theory, evolution can occur over very short time spans.

Yeah, that makes sense, I was thinking grand scale, not factoring in limited gene pool, so to speak...

[ScubaDrew]

I think the one I pointed out was a rainbow trout. There are several different species of trout in the lake.

I believe that one was a rainbow as well, but I did see at least two others, one huge rainbow, and one rather pale trout, but it was a bit cloudy at that spot so I can't be sure on the ID.

[BubbleBoy]

Actually according to current theory, evolution can occur over very short time spans.

Dr. Bill,

Can you recommend any reading on that specific subject that a non-bioscientist like me can understand. I've always been curious about that, because, at observed evolutionary rates, the numbers don't seem to add up. If it takes 100 years for a bird's beak to adapt by growing 1/8", it seems like it would take billions of years for that bird to morph into a human being or some other species. I know part of of the theory is that evolution accelerates when an environment is severely stressed. But, I'm sure there is more to it than that. I'm not looking to get a PhD on the subject, just interested in a summary of the latest thinking.

[ScubaDrew]

Dr. Bill,Can you recommend any reading on that specific subject that a non-bioscientist like me can understand. I've always been curious about that, because, at observed evolutionary rates, the numbers don't seem to add up. If it takes 100 years for a bird's beak to adapt by growing 1/8", it seems like it would take billions of years for that bird to morph into a human being or some other species.

If I may, I think I can help a little here. Being a non-bioscientist myself, I have found a few things helpfull along the way. The first, is to brush up a little on what evolution actually is, and what the Theory really states. There is alot of misconceptions out there, and the news media hasn't done much to clear things up. Some people are deliberately spreading lies about what the theory is, what it means, etc. and it makes things very confusing. I suggest you start with the Pocket Darwin. It is a free online booklet, available in PDF format here http://www.nuuf.org/Pocket_Darwin.pdf It is a brief synopsis in laymen's terms.

If the link doesn't work, pm me, I can email you a copy.

Next up, a book called Top 10 Myths about Evolution. I forget the author, off hand, but since you are local, one day we will meet up at a HH or at Dutch, I will loan you my copy if you like. It is also important to know what evolution isn't. I don't know if you were being facetious about birds turning into people, but there are alot of people out there who think that is what evolution means, including some prominent politicians.

I am sure there are others, and I am eager to see some recommendations from those who know much more than I do.

It is not appropriate to get into the religion vs science debate here, but I would be remiss if I didn't warn people, if you have not been exposed to the "debate" yet, there are a few things you should know. First, science deals with the natural world, and religion the supernatural. They are not mutually exclusive, and can co-exist peacefully. However, there are some people of a very narrow religous belief that feel otherwise, and are engaged in a political fight regarding science and the teaching of evolution specifically in schools. Not everyone involved is polite. In fact, on both sides there are some rather nasty people. SO, proceed with caution, as you may well find your beliefs not just questioned, but vulgarly insulted. It is not my intention to bring that debate here, or upset anyone's religious beliefs.

Personally I find much of it rather distastefull, counter productive, and honestly, that type of behavior has no place in a free exchange of ideas. Like everyone else, I have my own beliefs, they are important to me, as I am sure yours are to you, and if we all respect each other, well, I think the world would be better off.

Sorry to ramble on so much, but thanks to work I ahve now been up for 25 hours straight, and I am getting deleriios

[cmt489]

It is not appropriate to get into the religion vs science debate here . . .

Thank you ScubaDrew - this is corect. Please everyone, remember not to cross the line into religion in this thread

[DandyDon]

Wow Drew - well said, all the way, thanks.

[drbill]

The writings of my former Harvard professor, Stephen Jay Gould, are a good source for information on evolutionary theory written for the lay person.

[Walter]

Actually according to current theory, evolution can occur over very short time spans.

Dr. Bill,

Can you recommend any reading on that specific subject that a non-bioscientist like me can understand. I've always been curious about that, because, at observed evolutionary rates, the numbers don't seem to add up. If it takes 100 years for a bird's beak to adapt by growing 1/8", it seems like it would take billions of years for that bird to morph into a human being or some other species. I know part of of the theory is that evolution accelerates when an environment is severely stressed. But, I'm sure there is more to it than that. I'm not looking to get a PhD on the subject, just interested in a summary of the latest thinking.

Keep in mind, the rate of reproduction affects how quickly evolution can happen. If a creature's life span is measured in decades, changes cannot take place as quickly as for those whose lifespans are measured in days.

[BubbleBoy]

.. I suggest you start with the Pocket Darwin. It is a free online booklet, available in PDF format here http://www.nuuf.org/Pocket_Darwin.pdf It is a brief synopsis in laymen's terms.

If the link doesn't work, pm me, I can email you a copy.

The link worked for me. thks.

It is not appropriate to get into the religion vs science debate here,

I agree. The fence between those two camps is too high, and if you try to straddle it you can get hurt really bad falling either way.