83 replies to this topic

[Capn Jack]

i really do belive, sorta, that out somewhere in this vast expanse of a universe is this huge book. In this book is everybodys name with 2 dates next to it. You have no say on them 2 dates but a little bit about what happens between those dates.

Well said. Only explanation I can find!!!

I'd agree with this - when it's your time, it's your time...it doesn't matter what you are doing when it happens

As a USMC Gunny told me "you can not worry about the bullet with your name on it - you won't even hear it coming.... but remember, a lot of them are marked 'to whom it may concern'."

[BoomhowerSpeaks]

That sounds way more preachy then I was trying for.

Actually I was trying to figure out a way to point out how combat oriented troops recieve hundreds if not thousands of hours of training, and still not all react as they are taught. Compared to scuba training, you can't expect most people to react well at all. You did a pretty good job...

Yep, I've seen the freeze, the funny thing is you never really know who it's gonna be. Sometimes the guy who's got it together the most in garrison is the one who can't function and the sh*tbird is the one who ends up taking charge and getting the ball rolling.

[WreckWench]

While I haven't been diving for as long as most on this board I think that deaths have more to do with the personality of the person involved then the sport itself. Some people are too cocky, some are too scatterbrained, and some just don't pay attention at all. While these qualities may be fine in a bar or at an office they become huge liabilties when you're stuck underwater.
Just my thoughts, I could be wrong.
P.S. My brother never dove again after that trip, and that incident motivated me to buy my own gear.

WOW!!! VERY WELL SAID!!!

1. It is sad your brother has never dove again. The person I got certified with...had no issues getting certified had one incident post certification and quit. I on the other hand who had EVERY problem known to instructors in a single certification course and few extra for good measure just chalk bad experiences up to my luck so stayed with it.

2. Getting your own gear...Priceless!!!

3. Your analogy is SPOT ON!!! Diving is a tool...driving is a tool...the PERSON is the main ingredient to how someone will react when things go bad.

And to quote Ms. Fingrabber... for a VERY insightful post!

[pocahontas]

i really do belive, sorta, that out somewhere in this vast expanse of a universe is this huge book. In this book is everybodys name with 2 dates next to it. You have no say on them 2 dates but a little bit about what happens between those dates.

Well said. Only explanation I can find!!!

I'd agree with this - when it's your time, it's your time...it doesn't matter what you are doing when it happens

Too true. It's something that you realize often in my line of work.
I also have to say that you never know how someone will react when things start going really bad. Sometimes the guys who are so into going to every training class react the worst when thing go wrong for real. And then the guy who seems like the biggest load around the firehouse keeps his head together and steps up to the plate with some common sense.
That just my 2psi.....

[Cold_H2O]

I love diving with new divers ~ MOST of the time.
Somedays I don't want any unknown behaviors to interupt my diving.

I am lucky to have several tried and true dive buddies.
Its nice getting in the water knowing how my buddy will react.
The more I dive with a buddy the better my comfort level.

I have seen divers who sound skilled and confident fall apart when something goes wrong.

I do every dive understanding that I am responsible for myself first...
My buddy is there to share the experience NOT as my back up when things go wrong.

I am very lucky to have some great buddies who I know I can rely on no matter what the situation.

Edited by gis_gal, 13 July 2007 - 02:25 PM.

[gcbryan]

I think the underlying reason for the original post was a feeling of frustration at current teaching standards and a feeling that this was contributing to the diver death rate.

My personal opinion is that although the standards are low increasing them probably wouldn't contribute in a meaningful way to lower death rates.

Death rates are low and most of the deaths probably weren't preventable in that they were due to heath or bad luck (one's number being up) or due to poor judgement in someone who would still have poor judgement even if standards were higher.

It would be good if standards were higher I just don't think it would impact the death rate much since it is already low and extraordinary events have to take place to result in death for the most part.

It is possible to address those feelings of frustration with the current system however. We can't really change the system but anyone can become an instructor and change a small group of students at a time by just providing more instruction. It's hard to do that if instructing is how you make a living but I know of those who do it as a hobby and they do turn out much better students.

Another way is simply to help newer divers who want to learn by giving some of your time and experience to them.

Neither of these things will lower the death rate I don't think since those with poor judgement in the first place aren't likely to ask you for your help. Those asking for your help are likely to be those self-motivated divers who will turn out all right regardless of the teaching standards.

But, anyone upset enough with the current system can change it one diver at a time if they are interested enough.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I don't know that I would call it "increasing the standards" so much, but I do believe that instilling proper habits and mentoring are an important factor in proper training. I am not really seeing so much of this these days. Can this be done in the fast track courses? I don't think so.

The formation or proper attitudes and habits goes a long way toward safety in the long run. Some develop this on their own. However, the vast majority do not. This is where I point the finger at the program and not so much the diver. On the other hand, after being out there for a while, the diver starts to notice that something is missing from their techniques. By not pursuing additional training to improve, the finger starts to move back in the direction of the diver and away from the training.

[Cold_H2O]

{snip} Another way is simply to help newer divers who want to learn by giving some of your time and experience to them.

Neither of these things will lower the death rate I don't think since those with poor judgement in the first place aren't likely to ask you for your help. Those asking for your help are likely to be those self-motivated divers who will turn out all right regardless of the teaching standards.

But, anyone upset enough with the current system can change it one diver at a time if they are interested enough.

I couldn't have said it better

There is a large group of divers in the Seattle area who often host Mentor/Newbie dives.
The goal of these dives it to pair up a newer diver with a skilled seasoned diver.

Each mentor knows that the dives that night are all about the newbie diver.
We dive THEIR profiles and work on the skills THEY want to work on.

I can't think of a better way to ensure that the newer dives learn and practice the needed skills to be good safe divers.
I have also found these dives help improve my skills.
I discover the areas where I have allowed myself to become lazy and not as focused when I am focusing on a newer diver.

Edited by gis_gal, 13 July 2007 - 07:03 PM.

[swfladiver]

well @!&% isn't this just a basket of worms to happen into. I tried to read everything but I am sure I missed some points. The only way to limit deaths in future years is probaly shoot all the idiots this year, sad but true. Buddy or not to buddy, I have 1 dive buddy at the moment for spearfishing and other then him I will dive solo, though not as deep. If sightseeing I don't mind pulling someone along. Shame dive instructors can't use corporal punishment in their classes like the nuns used.