91 replies to this topic

[PerroneFord]

I can see dive ops having a no deco policy if they don't want to sit on a site for the extra time those dives require and most others are NDL profiles. However unless you have to hang for 20 minutes or more longer than everyone else I see no reason to force that diver to sit out any dives if the SI says that they can get back in. Hell, for that matter you can violate your computer, hang, and still be out of the water before some other divers on the boat who don't trigger their computers.

See here's the problem.

Lets say I want to dive wreck XYZ on a charter. Most of the divers on the boat are diving XYZ to 60ft, and I am diving XYZ to 125ft but I am taking a 50% deco mix along. I intend to spend 20 minutes at 125ft. Now I will likely be back on the boat before the shallow divers, I will certainly have violated a recreational computer, but I will leave the water with less nitrogen loading than the divers diving shallow.

So Capt. Skippy examines my dive computer and says, "you're done for 24 hours"? I don't think so, and that's not a boat I would dive on.

I think it's imperative the divers dive within their training limits and the limits of safety. However, that line is quite variable based on diver education. And though some may not like to acknowledge it, there is diving beyond 60ft/55m and beyond 130ft. And some of it is really a lot of fun! I also don't think it's taboo to talk about diving beyond recreational limits in a forum of mostly recreational divers, because I would hope that discussion brings about some understanding of the very careful consideration that goes into making those dives.

One of the hardest things for me to do, is to go on just basic recreational dives with friends sometimes because they will want to do no planning and just fall in the water for an hour. Oddly, I'll do this with my tech buddies without problem because I KNOW they are going to multi-level, or build in stops during the dive. I did an 86 minute dive like this in December where the max depth was 100ft. I never even violated my recreational computer.

[pir8]

Sorry but very few vacation charters will have 50% deco mix for you

[PerroneFord]

Sorry but very few vacation charters will have 50% deco mix for you

Well, I guess I better stay off those vacation charters then...

[secretsea18]

For clarity sake, when all of the prior posters say "violate the computer" are you meaning"

1. "went into Deco, did their deco/safety stop time and ascended with a clear and happy computer"

or do you mean

2. "computer went into Deco, deco stop not done completely by ascent, and the computer is beeping/flashing that you failed to complete the deco stop time" ?

These situations are completely different and situation #1 does not result in actual violation of the computer for that dive. However, situation #2 for normal divers (not meaning Perrone's type of diving or others like that) is a true computer violation and it is NOT ok to just keep diving (and yes, I understand all the gas rules, meaning of nitrogen/oxygen gases in the tissues, ets) without an extended surface interval. Most computers either have a countdown or shut down to gauge mode for a 24 hour period (safety factor built into the computer to keep you from diving.)

And for what it is worth, regarding the OP's initial question .... I am certain that my Nitrox card and my AOW cards (well I only have 3, other one is the OW card) are by far the most USEFUL cards I have. I love to use Nitrox. At least I don't have to stop my dive so soon due to NDL and extending surface intervals required to keep my computer happy on air. Although I reach deco levels regularly on nitrox way before I get low on "air" in my single 80cuft tank, at least I get in a decent length of dive and my $$'s worth on my dive holidays with Nitrox. (I really want those implantible gills ... NOW) As that is the case I am very careful to make sure I dive with operations that do not limit dives to less than at least 70 minutes, unless they start to refund my remaining air in my tank...

There are some locations that the AOW card is required, no OW only unless your log book is inspected for experience required. Yes, I understand that the card does not actually certify that you have the experience, but I didn't make the rules for the dive op.


If I were you I would get the Nitrox card.

[VADiver]

Wow, it seems like this thread has branched off from the original question, but here are my thoughts.

Take the NITROX class...it will teach you about gas theory, physiology, dive planning, etc... But more importantly NITROX simply IS a safer gas--regardless of what die those hard air divers say. Most of their reasons revolve around, "I use air with no problem," but they cannot back it up with any real world information saying that air is better for you to dive with. You can find plenty of info regarding the benefits of NITROX.

As for computers, I have one but keep it in gauge mode for most of my diving. I use software to plan my dive and only use my computer for depth/time. If I plan on doing purely recreational dives on vacation I’ll use spare in computer mode to monitor the dive. But I still know what my profile is and monitor it mentally. Remember the best computer is your brain. I’ve been on only one boat where I had to sit out a dive for breaking some arbitrary time limit but that incident was been discussed before. Needless to say I do not dive with that charter anymore.

As for dive charters and buddies…both need to be chosen carefully. I called a dive one day because my buddy had an equipment failure we could not fix and I was not comfortable with the other dives being my buddy. It’s not elitist, but realistic. There are just some people who I won’t dive with ever…and if I found out they are on a boat I would consider cancelling the trip entirely. Some people are dangerous and do not belong in the water—simple.

[scubafanatic]

Hi Perrone, ......sometimes I think you need to get out more.... " do they mandate you dive with a computer at all? " ...um, not just 'yes'..but "H*LL YES !!!'

Get "out more" eh? I did nearly 100 dives in 2007. I don't think I can get out much more than that!

however, you are forced to accept these conditions because either it's a place you want to dive, and you are at their mercy......

Do you think this sounds like something I would enjoy? Especially spending $1k-$2k for?

Hi Peronne,

...by 'get out more' I meant diving outside of Florida, and especially outside the USA. I know you're used to having it your way by living/diving at a center of the tech universe, enjoying the general benefits of being a citizen of the world's technological/industrial superpower, where dive technology/training is abundant, not to mention the additional benefits your own personal close relationships/favors of the local Florida tech diving community. If you begin to do any significant 'overseas' dive travel, you will begin to appreciate the logistical/technological/training limitations of the wider world.

I understand you're a cave/wreck diver, and can likely achieve the bulk of your goals/interests in Florida anyway (although one day I hope you can dive Akumal, as I did a few years ago, it will blow-away anything you've seen in Florida's caves! )...however, for those of us more interested in the marine biology/cool reef structure/big critter arena, we are forced to follow the "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" school of diving...where one is a 'guest' of a foreign country/boat and subject to their requirements.

Karl

[PerroneFord]

Hi Peronne,

...by 'get out more' I meant diving outside of Florida, and especially outside the USA.

Oh, it's coming. I just didn't see the need to travel when my diving ability wasn't at a level where I felt comfortable venturing outside my local environment. I hope to be in the Great Lakes this summer and in Scapa next year. I also hope to dive Truk Lagoon, and a few other spots.

If you begin to do any significant 'overseas' dive travel, you will begin to appreciate the logistical/technological/training limitations of the wider world.

Oh believe me... I have a great taste for them. Many of my friends do some magnificent expeditions to faraway lands. Many of them you can read about in Advanced Diver Magazine. Truly amazing stuff. But I also know that when doing those dives, the logistics are often being considered 12-18 months in advance, cylinders are shipped, special gasses delivered, gear and equipment put on pallets and brought by ship, etc. The team is selected well in advance. I started setting up my 2009 Scapa trip in the spring of 2007.

I understand you're a cave/wreck diver, and can likely achieve the bulk of your goals/interests in Florida anyway (although one day I hope you can dive Akumal, as I did a few years ago, it will blow-away anything you've seen in Florida's caves! )

Actually, I can achieve very few of my goals diving in Florida. I don't necessarily enjoy caves that much and have been giving up caving altogether. I want to dive freshwater wrecks, and they are few and far between here. So that means I will be traveling to do the dives I most want to do. I've seen video of the caves in Akumal, and other areas. Very pretty, but I don't know that I'd make a special trip to dive them.

...however, for those of us more interested in the marine biology/cool reef structure/big critter arena, we are forced to follow the "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" school of diving...where one is a 'guest' of a foreign country/boat and subject to their requirements.

Karl

To some degree I will concede this. But with proper forethought and planning, a lot can be mitigated. Not to bring DIR into the discussion again, but a huge obstacle to DIR divers is trying to find others who dive the same way when traveling, and finding operators who cater to how DIR divers prefer to dive. A large compendium is now available to us that allows us to find charters, dive operations, and divers all over the world that dive as we do. And it makes getting the gasses we need, and operators we want, much simpler.

You CAN usually get what you want, but you do have to plan for it, and jump through more hoops. However, if I simply cannot get what I want at a destination I want to dive, I just won't dive it. My safety and well being come before "the dive" in my view.

[VADiver]

Oh believe me... I have a great taste for them. Many of my friends do some magnificent expeditions to faraway lands. Many of them you can read about in Advanced Diver Magazine. Truly amazing stuff. But I also know that when doing those dives, the logistics are often being considered 12-18 months in advance, cylinders are shipped, special gasses delivered, gear and equipment put on pallets and brought by ship, etc. The team is selected well in advance. I started setting up my 2009 Scapa trip in the spring of 2007.

Perrone, when are you off to Scappa? I'm going to try and swing a couple extra days in England this year and head up that way.

Do you have a group formed for 09, or is it a work in progress?

[PerroneFord]

Perrone, when are you off to Scappa? I'm going to try and swing a couple extra days in England this year and head up that way.

Do you have a group formed for 09, or is it a work in progress?

Hoping to get it done in '09. It's a work in progress. Have a friend who came here to take her CCR class and lives near Scapa in dives it regularly. She is going to be my point person for the trip. I'll let you know more later this year if you're interested.

[Scubatooth]

Perrone

is that trip closed to any add ons? as scapa is definately on the list just need to get through mix, unless most of wrecks are shallow enough for only nitrox based mixes (gracefulC whats the general range of the wrecks and is a mix card needed or a nice to have?)

sorry for butting in it kind of peaked my interest

Tooth

[PerroneFord]

Would a mod please split off my off-topic posts? I don't want to ruin t his good thread.

[WreckWench]

Would a mod please split off my off-topic posts? I don't want to ruin t his good thread.

Hit the report post and you'll get the mod's attention faster! I've asked them to split it for you. Do you want it split into 1 or 2 additional topics off the original post about nitrox?

[PerroneFord]

Do you want it split into 1 or 2 additional topics off the original post about nitrox?

Whatever is necessary to keep the thread on point. My posts could just be deleted if that would be simpler.

[pir8]

Do you want it split into 1 or 2 additional topics off the original post about nitrox?

Whatever is necessary to keep the thread on point. My posts could just be deleted if that would be simpler.

Why don't you just start a new thread on the topic you want to discuss?

[VADiver]

Perrone, when are you off to Scappa? I'm going to try and swing a couple extra days in England this year and head up that way.

Do you have a group formed for 09, or is it a work in progress?

Hoping to get it done in '09. It's a work in progress. Have a friend who came here to take her CCR class and lives near Scapa in dives it regularly. She is going to be my point person for the trip. I'll let you know more later this year if you're interested.

Cool... I want to dive Scappa (as well as Truk) but the problem is getting together with a group of like minded divers. Just let me know when you start to firm up the details.

I also hope to take a trip to the Keys this winter over a long weekend...do you have any time off?