57 replies to this topic

[peterbj7]

There is a new series on tv called What Would You Do? And the premise is what would you do if faced with a difficult problem NOT knowing that you were being filmed by a hidden camera. Would you try to help? Would you walk away? Would you ignore it for fear of retaliation?

So here is our SECOND in a series called WHAT WOULD YOU DO? Diving Edition

Scene: GRACIOUSLY CONTRIBUTED BY PETER AKA PETERBJ7...

Recently I've had divers with two different operators here in Belize mention that they didn't like to see their DMs handling seemingly tame sting rays and nurse sharks. Even though the contacts were usually initiated by the creatures themselves, they (the divers) still thought it was an undesirable practice. What do you think? And what would you do?

Options: What do you think about handling fish in general? Would you say something to a DM or guide if you saw them do it? Would you say something to another diver if you saw them do it? If you do say something...what do you say and how to do you handle the situation?

How does it work:

There are no right and wrong answers. There are however MANY answers for many reasons. The point is to see what you would PERSONALLY do and why. And then hopefully to see how others would respond and perhaps collectively learn how to help our fellow divers be safer to themselves, and safer to our underwater world we so love and safer to those around them.

Rules for Posting a Reply:

This type of topic will involve a variety of differing opinions and as previously stated NO ANSWER is Right or Wrong. However we will mandate per our site rules that ALL RESPONSES BE RESPECTFUL AND POLITE AND KIND. The idea is to LEARN from this experience and discussion(s) and not 'showcase a reply so we look good', 'try to be hurtful' or even play 'armchair quarterback after the fact'.

Please keep in mind your initial response as to WHAT WE WOULD DO may change after ongoing discussion. This is most likely good. However to affect that change a variety of opinions will need to be presented which means a variety of options for solutions. Please consider all choices/options as VALID and do not dismiss them simply because they are not what you would have done. The truth is...no one knows what they would really do UNLESS THEY WERE ACTUALLY THE ONE IN THE SITUATION. And since we do not have a real hidden camera to film you we will rely on your honesty in your replies.

So may the discussion begin.

1. What would you do in this situation?
2. Why would you choose this course of action?

[gcbryan]

They're tame because they've been handled in the past. At this point does it matter? Who knows. I know dive resorts do what dive resorts do to bring in customers.

In general human beings handling animals does very little in a positive way for the animal unless it's a cat or dog

It's doesn't send a good message is about all I'd say. Either hunt them or leave them alone.

The other argument however is that by allowing contact by the public they learn more about the animals and will be more interested in ecological issues. That's why we have Aquariums. It does change their behavior however.

Edited by gcbryan, 05 January 2009 - 10:52 PM.

[ScubaDadMiami]

My opinion has changed on this over time. In the past, I have interacted with wildlife in ways that I now regret, such as when I rode a large turtle around underwater. I have taken part in shark feeds, done the Stingray City dives and the like.

These days, I don't do anything to artificially draw in wildlife. So, no baiting, etc. If the wildlife wants to interact with me, I will do so. If others interact in this way, I don't see anything wrong with it so long as the contact is initiated by the animals.

[gcbryan]

For the record...I have interacted with UW wifelife as well but I don't think it's a good idea. If you go to a popular dive site and everyone has to touch,poke,interact with every animal many of the animals will just leave that dive site so it doesn't even benefit the divers to do this.

[diverdeb]

For the record...I have interacted with UW wifelife as well but I don't think it's a good idea.

Hmmmm, a freudian slip maybe????

Sorry Bryan, I couldn't resist.

[gcbryan]

For the record...I have interacted with UW wifelife as well but I don't think it's a good idea.

Hmmmm, a freudian slip maybe????

Sorry Bryan, I couldn't resist.

You got me. I'll poke/prod/interact with wildlife but only if it's female and only if it's married! I have a problem!

[Victoria]

In 2000, I dove the Flower Gardens off of the Fling (back when Fling and Spree were "Rinn Boats" operated.) It was my first saltwater dive trip, and I was rather new still to diving, so it took me a while to gear up. Consequently, my buddy and I were last into the water.

When we were about 30ft down (and everyone else already on the bottom, a +/- 25-27ft whaleshark glided slowly past me. So, being the lunatic I am, and laughing like one through my reg, I dolphin kicked for all I was worth, and caught up!

(This whole episode was so awesome, and SO weird...) The shark saw my buddy trying to catch up to me, and turned. The shark came damned near right nose to nose with my buddy, and all my buddy could see was a 4ft wide mouth!! So my buddy, who had apparently read about some Okinawan pearl diver who'd been "sucked in" by a whaleshark, started scooting backwards in the water like a lobster! It was the funniest thing I have EVER seen in my weird life! Literally, my dive buddy (also co-worker) had his back vertical in the water, facing the shark, and using hands and fins to propel himself backwards (cuz he didn't want to turn his back on the shark?!) And the shark lazily swum after him! They moved in about a 40ft dia circle, spiralling back up to the surface, over about 7-8 minutes...may have been less, but total dive time was 15 mins...

The whole time I was swimming with the shark, hitching a couple rides on the tail fluke, touching and seeing and experiencing this wonderful creature. I had considered grabbing the dorsal fin, but the upper fluke on that tail was 5-6ft tall, and something told me I did NOT wanna get whacked by that baby if the shark decided she'd had enough and was outta there! So I played with this shark for quite a while, the whole time she's investigating my dive buddy (and his brain was screaming "I'm not plankton! I'm not plankton!" he told me later.) The feel of the skin was incredible. This experience lasted long enough that I was able to explore her, stem to stern, twice, which is why I'm thinkin' the time was about 8 mins total with her. It was absolutely magical!!!

And NONE of the 30-odd other divers in the water saw a thing. Why is it no one ever looks up?!

So we broke the surface, prolly about 75 yards from the Fling. The DM later told me "I saw one head pop up, then a second, and I thought 'that's a short dive!'...and then I saw the fin and figured I'd better come a'runnin'." So they launched the zodiac, and came and retrieved us. The whaleshark wandered off, we clambered into the zodiac, were back on the Fling before any of the other divers returned.

I was absolutely ZOOOOOOOMING on adrenaline, as can be imagined! The captain and DM asked about the shark, and I told them all about it. They were very pleased!

BUT...........

When the rest of the divers were back on the boat and filtering into the salon, one of the crew members mentioned that my buddy and I had played with a whaleshark. Several of the divers from our group (via our LDS) were enthusiastically asking questions. And then I got dogpiled by a couple of divers who were absolutely horrified that I had touched the shark!! No touchy! No touchy!

No one had briefed us ahead of time to NOT touch the critters, but they sure chewed my arse for having done so!

I was rather puzzled at the vehement pronouncements that I had endangered the shark by touching her, but as I had not been briefed otherwise, I shrugged it off. I was ecstatic, and on cloud 9 for hours.

Edited by Victoria, 06 January 2009 - 10:47 AM.

[Monkey Diver]

I don't advocate it, but that is just my position. One of the problems that results with handling and feeding these underwater creatures is what happens to the innocent diver who comes along without anything to feed them, and they react in a very aggressive and nasty manner. There have been several documented incidences where divers have been badly bitten because they did not bring lunch with them. However, I don't think this practice will stop because tourist divers in resort type environments love it, and the dive guides get good tips because of it.

[Hipshot]

As for petting nurse sharks, it would be good to remember that at any given moment, a shark will do what it feels like doing. 'Nuf said.

Rick

[Divegirl412]

I will admit that I am one of the divers that commented. From what I hear this is very widely practised here, and in fact my dive op was actually much less involved than others. I am told there is a location where the nurse sharks gather to be "petted".. "initiating" the contact... most likely learned behavior. While I was diving the sister Cayman islands last year, at one site, huge grouper followed us around like puppies begging to be petted. I still did not touch. Why did I comment? We all see divers and DMs touching stuff and creatures, following marine life, making the octopus or squid squirt ink, blowing up the puffer fish etc. That is potentially harmful behavior because you have then rendered the animal less able to defend itself as it swims away. Or traumatized it. Other creatures have protective mucus etc that can be rubbed off. And others can just plain hurt you... I would say good for them LOL.

Knowledgeable divers might have a better idea what it is safe to touch or not touch, but what about the newbies.. or the just plain stupid divers. They see that behavior from the diving staff and go away thinking.. cool, I can touch whatever I want to. My point to the DM and owner was that I understood that tourists come looking for certain thrills, and they would not be competitive if they dd not accommodate some of this. But they should educate as well. Making a few comments about the uniqueness of the nurse shark etc and advising people to NOT touch the marine life themselves would help.. even if they can't always lead by example. Because I do agree with Bryan that interaction frequently changes the mindsets of people.

My other point was that most Caribbean dive sites these days do NOT have large amounts of marine life. One nurseshark here, one turtle there. Nothing like SE Asia etc. So why hurt and traumatize the few creatures you DO have??

My extensive 2 cents

Rosa

[peterbj7]

Agreed wholeheartedly, Rosa, and a good recommendation for the future. Hope you didn't mind being the subject of a thread!

Kamala - I expect some of your guests here in May will feel as Rosa does, and equally I know that the DMs at Patojo's touch the wildlife as much as other DMs here do. They don't see anything wrong in it, but I think Rosa's explanation would be a good idea. That or ask the DMs to change their behaviour for the week!

[finGrabber]

I learned this when I was a kid with aquariums:

Other creatures have protective mucus etc that can be rubbed off.

I think the thing that makes the ocean so incredible is it's still wild. If we continue to touch and tame the animals, it just becomes a glorified petting zoo

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

I was taught "take only pictures, leave only bubbles", and to me that includes not leaving my fingerprints all over everything. Have I ever accidently touched something underwater? Yes. Have I improved my diving control to minimize or eliminate that problem? Yes again.

It's not just the fish life being fed or handled that needs to be considered, either, although there is a substantial amount of Pavlovian training going on by a lot dive ops, training various species to "come when called". The dive op is trying to survive by giving divers or snorkelers "something special" and charging for it. If I see a DM poking a wrench into a hole to try to get a goatfish to show itself, I shake my head at him underwater, and swim away hoping the DM will stop. Depending on how crowded the boat is, I try to casually mention the no-touch to the DM's, but they're going to fish for the tips, so to speak. I also do not go on "feeding" dives if I know that's what the op plans to do. But, I also see divers grab onto coral to peek under, or to hold steady to take pictures or in a current, or kick it because they're not paying attention. Coral are animals too, and they are struggling ever harder than the fish just to survive in the warmer waters, much less the abuse some divers throw their way. Divers have definitely affected the coral, even with the type of sunscreen they wear.

That said, divers changed the ocean environment when they first began diving, and the more divers there are in the water, the more we affect the sea life in a multitude of ways. Without even touching the fish, they still become used to having us in the water with them. Does this change the way they behave? I'd have to ask Dr. Bill for help on that one.

[Bubble2Bubble]

In the past I have really appreciated divers/buddies that have come up to me after a dive and said mike PLZ tuck your octo in because you where dragging it across the reef like a wrecking ball TY Buddy I was even reminded last year by a SD Diving Icon (nameless) that touching anything, even to still yourself for a photo Op is a No No.. agian I subscribe to Dont Touch

Bubski

[Monkey Diver]

I was at Bahia De Los Angeles in Baja, Mexico, last year diving with whale sharks. We were instructed not to touch them, and then this beautiful 30 plus foot creature swam right next to me, and I just couldn't resist touching it as we swam side-by-side. I am truly sorry, and I hope God and the diving community will somehow forgive me. Now I feel much better.