84 replies to this topic

[Dejah]

Sounds really interesting the book your reading, on the Sea World deal I'm not sure of what happened in that respect, but in a way I feel sorry for those animals as they are kept in tanks (very large ones) and probably have to go through a very rigerous schedule just to entertain people with the shows. I'm sure there was probably a lot more to the story behind what happened with the Orca and the trainer, but we'll never know it all or possibly the truth of it all because the media is only going to show us what they want us to know.

I mean it's the same deal when you hear stories about Circus Elephants going crazy or whatever the case may be.. I'm sure they get pissed because their either being mistreated or ulimately pushed too far. Yet like I said before, we'll never know the whole truth about those stories.. the media, newpaper/news people aren't going to tell us the whole truth about what happened or what happens.

[Dive_Girl]

I say set them all free! Yes, yes I understand the other side of the argument that people can learn about critters this way and may eventually be more environmental because of it, but I can't stomach it. I don't go to places like Sea World. They won't get my money. It breaks my heart. :dltears:

[nextariel]

last Friday night at Sea World I watched the most incredible bond between a whale and a trainer. The whale gave the trainer the tongue, more than once. Their relationship in the water and when she was on the platform was amazing. The whale certainly looked like he was enjoying himself and wanted to please the trainer.

[Terri]

Where's SHAMULOVES ME? Mike - you should be weighing in on this subject. Didn't you dive at Sea World for quite a while?

[SquattingRadishDM]

I say set them all free! Yes, yes I understand the other side of the argument that people can learn about critters this way and may eventually be more environmental because of it, but I can't stomach it. I don't go to places like Sea World. They won't get my money. It breaks my heart. :dltears:

There is a fundamental difference between Animal Sancturies, Zoos and places like Sea World. I dont think it is quite fair to lump them all together. I dont agree with the training of wild species for entertainment and money making purposes. The training of captive animals or even animals that have been bred in captivity for a few generations serves no scientific purpose. By teaching Whales or Dolphins to perform tricks we are not furthering our understanding of them, indeed we are forcing them OUT of their natural behaviour which is so difficult to study. It merely highlights the human tendancy to simplify and anthropomorphize things we do not understand.

OTOH Places like London Zoo (and others Im sure, just pulling one I have visited out of my brain) play a key role in captive breeding programs and research.

last Friday night at Sea World I watched the most incredible bond between a whale and a trainer. The whale gave the trainer the tongue, more than once.

There is an anecdote in Peter Benchleys - Shark Trouble (which chronicles his many diving trips) in which he is sitting on the side of a rib waiting to dive with Orcas. An Orca comes up to the boat and rests its head on the side of the rib, opens its mouth and waits for him to scratch its tongue. The scientist he was with said this had happened quite a few times before. This incident was back in 1983 before orcas had had much contact with divers an humans that didint want to kill them. I think this is like the kind of the relationships that develope between cleaner fish species and large Pelagic species. No special bond, merely the conditioning of behaviour due to the mutual benefits of both parties.

Their relationship in the water and when she was on the platform was amazing. The whale certainly looked like he was enjoying himself and wanted to please the trainer.

If I was locked in a room all day and didnt know where the next meal is coming from Id try and suck up to the person who eventually brought me some food aswell. At places like Stingray City the Stingrays will snuggle up to you and be friendly even if you dont have food, as they have been conditioned that most humans in that spot carry food.

Relationships between individual animals that in anyway could be called emotional are very rare, and even then its only with members of the same species. Elephants have been known to mourn their dead, some species (esp. some birds) have lifetime breeding partners, some emotional attachment could be argued in these cases. Even the initial bond with ur pet when you get them is based on reward as your the one providing for them.

Kinda rambled off topic but I'll try and sum up. Humans inherently anthropomorphize and ascribe human characteristics and values onto non-human things. But lets remember we are animals to and as such can understand wild animals if we stop overcomplicating things, we both share the two most basic urges that influence behaviour. Food and Sex

[randy54]

I say set them all free! Yes, yes I understand the other side of the argument that people can learn about critters this way and may eventually be more environmental because of it, but I can't stomach it. I don't go to places like Sea World. They won't get my money. It breaks my heart. :dltears:

I would like to agree about setting them all free, but unfourtunetly many are not capable of living free. Those born in captivity, and others that have been held for decades have no ability to fend for themselves. Kieco (sp) the Orca that played in Free Willy, is an example. Dispite years for trying to teach it to live free, the best it can do hang around people, waiting for handouts.

I personally think it is tragic we have created this situation, but now that we have, how do we stop it? The animals we have in captivity NEED companionship of their own kind, as we have learned, again often through tragic circumstances. Providing the companionship then continues the circle. Many wild animal parks are much better than "zoo's", which are sort of OK for land animals, but nothing we create will come close to being a proper enviroment for Orca's and dolphins.

[Sophia]

If I was locked in a room all day and didnt know where the next meal is coming from Id try and suck up to the person who eventually brought me some food aswell. At places like Stingray City the Stingrays will snuggle up to you and be friendly even if you dont have food, as they have been conditioned that most humans in that spot carry food.

Relationships between individual animals that in anyway could be called emotional are very rare, and even then its only with members of the same species. Elephants have been known to mourn their dead, some species (esp. some birds) have lifetime breeding partners, some emotional attachment could be argued in these cases. Even the initial bond with ur pet when you get them is based on reward as your the one providing for them.

Kinda rambled off topic but I'll try and sum up. Humans inherently anthropomorphize and ascribe human characteristics and values onto non-human things. But lets remember we are animals to and as such can understand wild animals if we stop overcomplicating things, we both share the two most basic urges that influence behaviour. Food and Sex

While I also did not like the unnatural behavior at Stingray City, you must admit that it started innocently enough.

I do quibble with you about your statement that emotional relationships only exist between the same species, and even then only rarely. I've seen several pets go into mourning on the death or seperation from an owner, even though everything else was still the same. I have also seen a few studies which prove things like gratitude in monkeys. Emotions do not come from anything unique to humans, they come from the animal in us.

[SquattingRadishDM]

While I also did not like the unnatural behavior at Stingray City, you must admit that it started innocently enough.

Yes its true that conditioning animals to visit a certain spot when divers are around on the face of it seems innocent enough. Indeed such practices are used to study shy creatures like Great Whites where simply finding them is a challenge and its easier to chum and ge them to come to you. However its when the group of animals come to rely on the regular feedings to support the local population or it changes their behaviour that things become dubious. Afterall most animals should fear man as we are probably the most unpredictable - to animals at least - species, during an encounter with a human we could feed them or we could slaughter them.

I do quibble with you about your statement that emotional relationships only exist between the same species, and even then only rarely. I've seen several pets go into mourning on the death or seperation from an owner, even though everything else was still the same. I have also seen a few studies which prove things like gratitude in monkeys. Emotions do not come from anything unique to humans, they come from the animal in us.

Yes I see your point. I was talking about natural behaviour in the wild as opposed to eny type of bond with humans, which tends to induce unatural behaviour. Though I accept that domesticated animals (and maybe some wild) do display genuine signs of emotion, tho initially the bond is built through reward. Even most natural symboitic relationships between species, such as the cleaner fish/Pelagic animal are simply a matter of survival and mutual gain.

However we are learning new things about animals everyday and maybe we havn't studied them enough. Or maybe such questions such as "is emotion displayed in the relationship between animal A and B?" are subjective and could be percieved either way.

Anyway whether emotion is displayed or not, conditioning them to accept humans is a double edged sword. On the plus side we can observe them, study them and enjoy them. On the downside we can radically change their behaviour to either rely on or even accept man. Many species have suffered from loosing their fear of humans as an intereaction with a human can be rewarding (they get fed) or fatal (they get slaughtered and sold). We are truely the most unpredictable species.

I'd like to hear what Dr Bill and others who actually study animals have to say about this.

[Walter]

Yes its true that conditioning animals to visit a certain spot when divers are around on the face of it seems innocent enough.

Two points -

First, I don't consider that behavior to be innocent.

Second, that's not how stingray city started. That's a spot where fishermen cleaned their catch. Divers discovered it later and then began the horrible, IMHO, practice of hand feeding the rays.

[SquattingRadishDM]

Yes its true that conditioning animals to visit a certain spot when divers are around on the face of it seems innocent enough.

Two points -

First, I don't consider that behavior to be innocent.

Second, that's not how stingray city started. That's a spot where fishermen cleaned their catch. Divers discovered it later and then began the horrible, IMHO, practice of hand feeding the rays.

I dont consider it innocent either. Once you delve beyond the initial innocent sounding "wow we get to see Stingrays and they get a meal" aspect of it and into the influences such conditioning has on the local population, it becomes anything but innocent. However many people dont think it thru and take it on face value, that is why such practices lure customers.