28 replies to this topic

[jextract]

http://www.cdnn.info.../padi/padi.html

[Walter]

I often think the ACLU has a screw loose, but this time, they're right.

[jextract]

You and I totally agree, on both counts. Not to get political, but I just don't get how the same group who supports the pedophile North American Man-Boy Love Association sues the Boy Scouts.

[Walter]

The concept is to defend the Bill of Rights. They read them with a strange slant.

[OilfieldTrash]

Well, I can see both sides of this, but speaking as a person who works on one of the biggest floating drilling/ production platforms in the Gulf (and a mighty fine terrorist target), I'm in favor of releasing the info. I would much rather the info be compared to the official state department "hit list" in the off chance of finding a match, than not making the effort at all. Currently, charter fishing boats circle us all day long in search of big game fish. Whose to say that terrorist can't get on these same boats and plant explosives below the water line where we can't get to them?

[Walter]

What information in PADI's data base could possibly be useful in finding terrorists? The entire concept is silly.

[BradfordNC]

The concept is to defend the Bill of Rights. They read them with a strange slant.

even worse, the selectively defend the bill of rights.

they are strangely silent on the amendment which gaurentees all the others

[drbill]

they are strangely silent on the amendment which gaurentees all the others

Hmmm... if I get your drift, the one you think they should defend is the one that someone might use to silence my right to free speech. Just being playful, not serious. The only time I "bare" arms these days is when I'm getting a flu shot.

Dr. Bill

[Walter]

Let's agree that their mission is to defend the Bill of Rights, but we don't all agree on how good a job they do in trying to accomplish that mission. Politics is threatening to rear its ugly head. Moving on to non political areas...........

[SquattingRadishDM]

What information in PADI's data base could possibly be useful in finding terrorists? The entire concept is silly.

The article said that the FBI found a terrorist training manual that suggested placing underwater explosives, so learning to dive would be the first step. I guess their thinking is to see if any people on their Watch Lists have learnt to dive in the US, much like the 9/11 hijackers learnt to fly in the US.

Over here in England we have the Data Protection Act which states that all information held on individuals by private companies must be kept confidential, except for reasons of National Security. So Im sure MI6 and MI5 have all kinds of info on UK citizens.

[Walter]

I guess their thinking is to see if any people on their Watch Lists have learnt to dive in the US

Then why do they need information on people not on their watch lists? It would be very easy to get a court order to get information of people they have probable cause to suspect. If they have probable cause, the courts will issue orders giving them access to such information for the individuals in question. There is absolutely no reason to be gathering information on other folks.

[drdiver]

I think it's a matter of gathering information from a variety of sources. PADI is a source of a huge amount of data on divers. It's just more grist for the intelligence data base--gets put in--gets correlated with all the other information they are gathering--who knows if it ever comes out. Just all part of the on-going war. It's not the worst infringement of civil liberties that is going on now and who knows when the whole thing will end. I hate to think of the impact on our largely self regulated hobby if some terrorists had been trained to scuba dive here in the States and then done something like blown up the Statue of Liberty or sunk a cruise ship. I don't think that's very likely to happen, but then flying an airplane into a building wasn't something I thought of either. It's a little outside my area of expertise. After all, airline travel is a commercial and societal necessity--recreational Scuba is not. My company has cooperated voluntarily with the FBI and Customs on terrorist related information and will continue to do so. We view it, like PADI, as the right thing to do. This is not an easy war we're in and it isn't going to be over for a long time. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion--it's still the good ole USA!

[Walter]

It's just more grist for the intelligence data base--gets put in--gets correlated with all the other information they are gathering--who knows if it ever comes out.

True. Big Brother at work. We need to defend against small and large infringements on our privacy by the government. There are times when law enforcement officials need such information to conduct investigations and/or locate suspects for arrest. In those situations, they should get the information. In other situations, they should not. Our system is set up for the courts to decide when law enforcement is entitled to gather that information. We should let the system work as intended. Release information when presented with a court order, don't when the court order is missing. Law enforcement officials are used to working within those constrains, they do it very well. It is not placing an undue burden on them to make them follow proper proceedure. I'll be happy to release information on any of my students or former students to the FBI when presented with a valid court order. If the court order is missing, no information will be released. My agency is following the same proceedure.

flying an airplane into a building wasn't something I thought of either

I guess you don't read Tom Clancey, he wrote of it years before it happened.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

[drdiver]

Court orders are a poor way to defend against something happening that was/is being planned covertly. Court orders' primary purpose is investigation of existing crimes and are limited in scope. We aren't talking about law enforcement here, we're talking about intelligence. Different set of priorities and a different mindset. One of the conclusions of the 9/11 commission was a failure in imagination by intelligence authorities to define the threat scope. Maybe they should have read more Tom Clancy.

Forgot about the Tom Clancy book, you're right. But everything that's imagined isn't considered likely either. And it didn't cross my mind until a couple of days after 9/11 when I was reminded of it by a commentator.

Historically, civil rights have been suspended or altered in times of war, the most extreme example being Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus in the Civil War and the imprisonment of citizens of Japanese descent in WWII. And I could mention the FBI confiscating my uncles' shortwave radio during WWII because his last name happened to be Schneider. Not a good thing to happen, but it's a reality of the circumstances.

That old saw from Benjamin Franklin is trotted out by everyone from people wanting to buy machine guns for "recreational purposes" to drug users. The ultimate loss of liberty is losing your life without your choice because a person's act of violence against you. If I have to give up what is really an minor infringement of liberty to prevent that from happening to an innocent person, I'm quite willing to do that.

Guess the terrorists will know where to come to be certified now, won't they?

What's the YMCA doing to prevent that?

[Walter]

Yes, propaganda is a wonderful thing. Lincoln's list of abuses of human rights is one of the longest in history. He was an evil dictator. You don't win arguments by comparing civil rights abuses of today with those of a man who murdered over 600,000 people, tossed people in jail not only without trial, but without even charging them with crimes, fixed elections, destroyed newspapers and jailed newspaper owners/employees who dared to write against his policies and tossed out the Constitution because of a desire to introduce an unconstitutional economic policy.

The Bill of Rights isn't something to ignore when it doesn't suit your needs. It's something to defend at all times from everyone and anyone who is trying to circumvent it. Without the Bill of Rights in full force, there's nothing special about living in the USA. Those ideals are worth defending with your last breath. Different set of priorities and a different mindset don't change the Constitution.