80 replies to this topic

[TraceMalin]

It seems as though the higher I've progressed in my training (DM and holding, currently), the greater the epiphany that the "diving business" is business first and diving a distant second.

The business of diving is not diving. Just like anywhere else the buyer needs to beware.

As an independent instructor who makes 90% of his money from lifeguarding, I have a tough time competing with the dive centers. They've got the retail space and that carries clout with consumers. Nevermind the fact that I just want to teach the best courses I can no matter how long they take. I'm a Mr. Miagi looking for his "karate kid." If I can can train just one diver in my life who really makes me proud then that's all I can ask for as an instructor. Instructors who are proud of all the divers they've certified are probably missing the point. It's like a McDonald's burger with how many billion served compared to that one guy in a roadhouse in west Texas trying to concoct the perfect burger.

Trace

[fun2dive]

Trace,

That is the type of instructor I am looking for, my Mr. Miagi! Do you teach Intro to Cave? My goal is to take the class towards the end of next summer (July/August). Need more dives to prepare before the class. Experience is important to go with my motivation! There are a few recommended instructors, but I have time to find the right one. One who is dedicated to helping me become the best (and safest) diver I can be. Not one who wants to just turn out the numbers.

Have fun,
-stacy

[TraceMalin]

Stacy,

No, I don't teach cave diving at all. In fact, I'm just an Intro to Cave diver myself. I was supposed to complete Apprentice & Full Cave with Terrence Tysall back in November, but I became ill and missed out. Terrence is Grant's (bigblueplanet) mentor at the Cambrian Foundation. My friend Nick who is a PADI instructor in NJ raved about Terrence because he was Nick's instructor for Full Cave. I was going to buddy with Nick's girlfriend for the class. Chris Wright (NACD) was my instructor for Cavern & Intro. He is a great guy and I learned a lot and really cares about his students. But, by reputation for being the "best," Jarrod Jablonski, David Rhea (GUE) and Terrence Tysall (NSS-CDS) usually get lots of praise. Grant can tell you a lot more about Terrence. Nick told me that he is really anal about dive planning. I have worksheets from Terrence that look like a NASA checklist for a moon landing. Two of my friends just died in a cave in Mexico in December because they ran OOG exiting from a dive with lots of jumps. They had just taken a GUE DIR-F class too, but failed to follow their training and deviated from the plan or incorrectly planned their gases. Both were full cave certified and both were dive pros with hundreds of cave and trimix dives. So, I think that an instructor who is picky about gas management might be a great one.

Trace

Edited by TraceMalin, 29 January 2005 - 06:02 AM.

[Diverbrian]

Stacy,

No, I don't teach cave diving at all. In fact, I'm just an Intro to Cave diver myself. I was supposed to complete Apprentice & Full Cave with Terrence Tysall back in November, but I became ill and missed out. Terrence is Grant's (bigblueplanet) mentor at the Cambrian Foundation. My friend Nick who is a PADI instructor in NJ raved about Terrence because he was Nick's instructor for Full Cave. I was going to buddy with Nick's girlfriend for the class. Chris Wright (NACD) was my instructor for Cavern & Intro. He is a great guy and I learned a lot and really cares about his students. But, by reputation for being the "best," Jarrod Jablonski, David Rhea (GUE) and Terrence Tysall (NSS-CDS) usually get lots of praise. Grant can tell you a lot more about Terrence. Nick told me that he is really anal about dive planning. I have worksheets from Terrence that look like a NASA checklist for a moon landing. Two of my friends just died in a cave in Mexico in December because they ran OOG exiting from a dive with lots of jumps. They had just taken a GUE DIR-F class too, but failed to follow their training and deviated from the plan or incorrectly planned their gases. Both were full cave certified and both were dive pros with hundreds of cave and trimix dives. So, I think that an instructor who is picky about gas management might be a great one.

Trace

Gee Trace, did you have to mention that incident?! My dive buddy will insist that I dive with a rope tied to me all of the time if she sees that!

My dive buddy already thinks that I am crazy! Let's not add suicidal to the list.

Seriously, that is why I also am grateful for instructors that push gas management. IMHO, that is the most neglected skill in most recreational courses and would prevent so many of the incidents that do happen.

[Sophia]

I even like washing my equipment.

Hmmm. Are you single and available?

If you would have been into carrying gear, we could have starting discussing the marriage right now.

I said I liked washing MY equipment. Anyone else's is just a chore. But mine is really, really cool. So, I admire each piece as I lovingly wash and rinse.

[Genesis]

Trace

Two of my friends just died in a cave in Mexico in December because they ran OOG exiting from a dive with lots of jumps. They had just taken a GUE DIR-F class too, but failed to follow their training and deviated from the plan or incorrectly planned their gases. Both were full cave certified and both were dive pros with hundreds of cave and trimix dives. So, I think that an instructor who is picky about gas management might be a great one.

Is this the incident with the 'megateam' (group of 4 and 5) which led to a double-fatality?

If so the IUCRR report is out, and it appears that the problem was not gas management related.

[TraceMalin]

Is this the incident with the 'megateam' (group of 4 and 5) which led to a double-fatality?

If so the IUCRR report is out, and it appears that the problem was not gas management related.

Yeah, that's the one. I received a phone call the day after it happened informing that Mike and Kent were dead. The earliest reports that I read were in Spanish from Mexican newspapers. There was more speculation than facts. Since I haven't been online in a while and hadn't spoken to anyone who knew exactly what happened, I'm glad you told me. I just read the reports. That dive plan violated just about everything we were taught through GUE.

[Genesis]

Yeah, the sad reality of it is that the final mistake, and the one which was fatal, was the three that turned around while the line search was being done at the EOL with the arrow pointing out. Reports are that they were only a few hundred feet from the surface and yet turned around and swam back into the system, towards their original entrance.

It certainly served as a reminder that knowing where you are at all times and verifying jumps and gaps is not a "suggestion."

It did leave me with a question though - is it not common to have penetration distances written on the line arrows down there? It is in Florida - I've not dove in the Cenotes. If you came to the end of a line with an arrow pointing out and "400" written on it, you'd have to be nuts if you were in a compromised gas situation to turn around and go back in - its obvious that you are on the front of a jump and the mainline leading out is somewhere in the immediate vicinity - and you're only 400' from an exit.

My condolances to the friends and family of those who perished.

Edited by Genesis, 29 January 2005 - 12:12 PM.

[WreckWench]

Hey G-man...I think you've done a good job of putting the 'organized vs self education' arguement to rest.

1. You think that the current instruction model is flawed.

[quote name='Genesis]For those who don't know me from elsewhere' date=' I'm generally hostile towards the methods and ideas that the various agencies present for learning various parts of diving, in that they all promote "trust me" dives in the context of classes. I believe that this is a great way to wind up seriously injured or even dead, and refuse to participate in the vacuuming of my wallet with the added risk of me having to haunt people for eternity.[/quote']

[quote=Genesis]One of the problems with 'formal instruction' is that it can lead you to believe there's only one way to do things. [/quote]

[quote name='Genesis] I have given up on the dive industry's "class format" after the joke of a class that is commonly called "Rescue Diver". I hold no certification for the compressor' date=' gas blending, regulator rebuilding, O2 cleaning, DPV piloting and a whole bunch of other things. [/quote']

[quote name='Genesis]If the dive industry and instructors in it wish me to trust them' date=' they can start acting in a manner that is accepting of the responsibility and authority they wish me to entrust them with.[/quote']

2. The result of such flaws are death and injury.

[quote=Genesis]Please explain why you would drill a scenario that is a suicide pact? Was any of that thought out and put on the table before the drill was done? [/quote]

[quote name='Genesis]If divers viewed certifications as "checkrides" rather than classes' date=' I believe we'd end up with far better divers. We'd also end up with fewer dead ex-divers.[/quote']

[quote name='Genesis]Now you'd THINK that the agencies would rather teach a safer way. You'd think wrong' date=' of course....Therefore, rather than have to deal with teaching proper gas selection and management, proper redundancy (which in the context of deeper recreational dives means either a decent-sized pony tank or even light doubles!), and the trouble and costs of that, getting rid of the "voodoo" view towards the user of elevated FO2s, not to mention developing the proper mindset (which takes quite a bit of TIME and is incongruent with the 5-day classes ALL the agencies push nowdays) they just ignore all this and teach you to make a CESA. They do this knowing full well that if you actually DO make one from any significant depth its quite probable that you will be badly hurt or even killed due to taking their advice.[/quote']

3. Therefore people should not rely on the current flawed educational system and should take their educational endeavors into their own hands.

[quote]The alternative is  to dive as you do now. But - rig yourself with a technical rig (doubles, backplate, wing, can light, etc.) Learn how to use it - how to do valve drills, swim it efficiently, trim it correctly, rig it cleanly. (This will take some time!)

Coingratulations. You now have the same core skills - except they're an order of magnitude better than you would have if you took the class.

Now do you want the card? Ok. Go find someone to give it to you. The point being that if you do things this way you do not have to trust anyone - including an instructor - at any point in time. You are comfortable and confident enough that if the instructor had a heart attack underwater, was eaten by a shark, or just tried to get you to do something you thought was stupid you'd just deco out and chalk it up to him having a bad day.[/quote]

[quote name='Genesis]You think I took a cave class before conducting any cave dives? You'd be wrong. I took a cave class to get a key to certain sites on private land where one had to be shown' date=' because I respect private property rights. [/quote']

[quote name='Genesis]Likewise' date=' I view the safest - and proper - progression in diving the same way. Take "checkrides" instead of "classes." [/quote']

4. By doing this we should see a decrease in roughly annual 100 diving related deaths a year of which 20% are actually health accidents in the water and not truly diving related.

[quote name='Genesis]What irritates me about accident reporting is how things that are clearly not actual dive-related problems get "counted". We don't consider a person who falls over from a heart attack on the golf course to be a "golfing death"' date=' but let the same guy get cack'd on a dive and its a 'diving fatality.' That's outrageously unfair - and since over a quarter of all diving fatalities are physiological problems, it radically inflates the 'danger' statistics and perceived risks by the public as well.[/quote']

[quote name='Genesis]As for the trail of bodies' date=' there isn't one. Let's be honest here folks - roughly 100 people a year kill themselves diving. Close to 1 million new certified divers enter the ranks every year from PADI alone, according to them. That 100 deaths are radically (by at least 20%) inflated, because the agencies (GUE included) hype the facts and figures by including such things as heart attacks and strokes - again, we don't call a heart attack on the golf course a "golfing death", so why is one underwater a "diving death"?[/quote']


5. However the number of deaths can not be attributable to poor instruction and so even if the original hypothisis is true, there is no significant data to warrent advocating your assertion that divers should not take classes for instruction purposes but rather as a 'check ride' to validate that they already have the skills.

[quote name='Genesis]Diving in general' date=' even diving radically beyond the "safe limits" of one's "training", is not THAT likely to lead to your demise. [/quote']

[drdiver]

Whoa, 20% mortalities are health related in the water.

Noboby is going to buy that in a minute.

Where are the 20% of swimmers that die?

Let's rethink that.

As someone said, very wisely,

"Scubadiving is an instrinsically dangerous activity."


At 30, 60, 90, 120, 150, 180, 210 feet.

Makes no difference.

"No matter how good you think you are, you can't breathe water."

Try again.

[WreckWench]

Whoa, 20% mortalities are health related in the water.

Noboby is going to buy that in a minute.

Where are the 20% of swimmers that die?

Let's rethink that.

As someone said, very wisely,

"Scubadiving is an instrinsically dangerous activity."


At 30, 60, 90, 120, 150, 180, 210 feet.

Makes no difference.

"No matter how good you think you are, you can't breathe water."

Try again.

Not sure if you were directing your comment to me as I was quoting Genesis stats on that 20% figure. I do know that many diving accidents are in fact 'health related accidents in the water' but they are called diving accidents. For example...in over 30 years of running a dive charter...my boat capt has had only one fatal incident. A diver had a heart attack at the surface in the water and died. If he had been on the boat it would have been deemed a heart attack. Because he was in the water it was deemed a diving accident. Having a heart attack regardless of where does not make it a diving accident but in this case a health accident in the water. -ww

[Dive_Girl]

It is my understanding the root of some injuries/deaths associated with diving are later found to have been attributed to a heart attack, stroke, seizure...etc. So, it has been speculated that diving not be blamed as the reason or the "why" to the injury/death. However, the onset of some of these events may not have occurred had they individual not been exerting themselves physically and his/her body been under pressure. Similarly, I have heard of skiiers who have died from heart attacks at altitude where it has been speculated later had the person not been at such altitude, the heart attack may never have occured. Again, pressure on the body was looked at as a contributing factor to the end result of a heart attack, but in the end it is a heart attack and likely not labeled as a skiing accident. But sometimes the sport of diving is viewed differently (WW's story above is a great example of a line that is oddly drawn).

So, the chain of events leading to a person's injury or death can sometimes be a contributing factor and other times not. I believe it would be difficult to be conclusive one way or the other, but I agree with WW that there is a difference between a diving accident and a health accident in the water.

Edited by Dive_Girl, 29 January 2005 - 07:50 PM.

[fun2dive]

When someone has a heart attack during an organized race (5K, 10K, etc.) that is a very strenuous activity, yet the death is attributed to a medical condition, not the race. When someone is in SCUBA gear and has a medical condition that causes death, they consider it a "dive related" death. It is possible that the death would have occurred with or without the activity, but there is no clear delineation of the cause and it makes diving "look" like more deaths are occurring from the sport than actually are. As Genesis would say, is a heart attack on the golf course considered a golf related death?

[TraceMalin]

As Genesis would say, is a heart attack on the golf course considered a golf related death?

I would imagine that if physiologists looked at the body's response to the stress of trying to place a tiny white ball into a distant hole they'd have to reclassify such ACS as a golf related fatality.

[BradfordNC]

It did leave me with a question though - is it not common to have penetration distances written on the line arrows down there? It is in Florida - I've not dove in the Cenotes.

it's only standard practice in America.

foreign countries, and especially Mexico are notorious for unmarked lines. Outside the US there is no standard on what the mainline consist of. Following the line you might encounter varying thichness and color, and even a confusing number of T's.

as always, Americans are trying to spread the way we do things to other countries, but because it's seen as "the American" way it is often seen as another example of our arrogance, even if it is logical, makes sense, and can save lives.