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Question about gear use...


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#16 Senior Tech

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 02:18 PM

Regarding some of the questions that have come up regarding the appropriate use of sealed diaphragm type first stages vs. flow through piston first stages, we'll itemize several situations that would be helpful for you to be familiar with....

1. For cold water such as ice diving, I agree that a sealed first stage such as a Zeagle, Apeks, Dacor, Mares, Posiden, AquaLung with sealed first stage kit, Sherwood, etc. would be preferable to a flow thru piston such as ScubaPro, Atomic, Cressi Sub, Oceanic, etc, however most freeze ups with either type of first stage are caused by pushing the purge button above water to check to see if the regulator is functional. By doing so the regulator does not have the advantage of the heat sinc that occurs when it is submersed in water. As a result due to "latent heat loss" caused by air molecules moving away from each other a freeze up can occur. In other words, don't purge your reg above water if ice diving. For those not familar wtih the term 'latent heat loss' its the way air conditioning works. When molecules move away from each other the resulting space between molecules loses heat which in non-technical terminology cools the air. (Sorry about the 'engineer' in me coming out from time to time!) So the reason that sealed first stages are generally preferable is because the internal moving parts are not in contact with water that can possibly freeze.

2. As for warm water diving, most of the upper end first stages regardless of style aka sealed or piston, are sufficient for what most people need or expect from them. Most of the noticable changes in performance will be in the design and tuning of the second stage.

As a side note, a long time ago the ratio between diaphram size, lever length and fulcrum length were established because they worked. But in the never ending struggle to make second stages smaller, the inescapable geometrical truth is "Less is Less". This means that performance has been sacraficed for size. So yes...in most cases....size does matter! :teeth:

Edited by Senior Tech, 30 January 2005 - 02:20 PM.

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#17 Senior Tech

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 03:21 PM

Hey you brought up a point I'm curious about. I teach my students to only quick rinse regs that are off a tank avoiding dunking the first stage. When soaking a regs, I tell them to do so while they are pressurized on a tank (ponies work well for this). I do the same. I won't soak regs even if the first stage is protected as I have been told that moisture can work up into the first stage. Senior Tech, this sort of has to do with storing regs. Am I being too conservative??


You are not being overly conservative because in general if you are soaking or rinising your regs and inadvertantly hit the purge button with the pressure turned off, water can work its way into the first stage. In particular the Atomic regulators utilize a seat saver feature which when the pressure is purged it draws the second stage seat away from its orafice leaving an open path for water to enter the first stage. Therefore it is a good practice to rinse your regs or use the "Bag Trick" which you can find by clicking here to alleviate these problems.
"People ask how long I've been repairing regulators...that's easy...ever since there was only one brand and model commercially available." -JC

#18 Senior Tech

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 03:33 PM

No piston reg is appropriate for cold water (under 50-55F)...


Piston regs are not recommended for ice diving or extremely cold water however 'big block' flow thru pistons such as Scubapro, etc are routinely used in 39 degree water with no ill effects as long as you don't purge them on the surface when the air temperature is well below freezing. 39 degree water will melt ice therefore it is ok such as Dive Girl mentioned.
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#19 Senior Tech

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 04:25 PM

Did you check the IP stability?


Quick answer...most regulators besides Posiden are 125 to 145 pounds per sq guage (PSIG). Posiden's average PSIG runs 135-174. Within that range the most important factor is lack of 'creep'. "Creep" is defined as the high pressure seat slowing leaking higher and higher pressure to the second stage which will cause a free flow. A high percentage of the second stage complaints are acutally first stage high pressure seats creeping higher pressure to the low pressure seat causing said free flows. Unfortunately many of todays models have some acceptable 'factory creep' which I personally find to be unacceptable. This is one of those cases where the machine shop tooling and procedures that I've mentioned earlier come in handy. One of the tricks that I like to do, is to eliminate the 'factory creep' as part of my repair procedures, which you can not do by just changing out parts.
"People ask how long I've been repairing regulators...that's easy...ever since there was only one brand and model commercially available." -JC

#20 Genesis

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 04:47 PM

No piston reg is appropriate for cold water (under 50-55F)...


Piston regs are not recommended for ice diving or extremely cold water however 'big block' flow thru pistons such as Scubapro, etc are routinely used in 39 degree water with no ill effects as long as you don't purge them on the surface when the air temperature is well below freezing. 39 degree water will melt ice therefore it is ok such as Dive Girl mentioned.

Its not the 39 degree water. Its the temperature of the gas as it expands at the orifice, and then flows down the piston - that's WELL below freezing. That cools the water in the balance chamber, and if those parts get cold enough, ice can form on the parts and jam things up.

All those cute bits in the MK20/25s (the sleeve on the piston, the plastic parts, etc) are there to attempt to prevent ice that forms on those surfaces from jamming the piston's movement. The new "AF" Mk25s have the "borg-style" cap in an attempt to present more surface area to the water, thus, to draw in more heat (even if the water is cold, it is obviously above freezing temperature or it would be ice!) None of this is a perfect solution. The more air you demand over a period of time, the more adiabatic cooling you get on those parts, and the higher the risk of a freeze. In warm water the flowing water in the balance chamber imparts enough heat to prevent a problem. In colder water this is not always true.

I can provoke (intentionally) a freeze on a Mk25 in my pool in the winter without purging it on the surface; I've done this as a test. My pool water temp in the winter is in the upper 40s, with air temps in the mid to upper 50s. I've never managed to do it though on a dive here in the gulf; my lowest water temp in the gulf on those regs has been 55F.

I know several people who have had it happen on quarry dives in the winter with water temps in the 40s as well. My view is that if you're going to dive in cold water, use a sealed balanced diaphram design instead of a balanced piston.

Another often-forgotten issue is the dewpoint of the gas in the tank. -50F should be good enough - if it actually is. Often its not, and then you can get a freeze up on a first stage even on a sealed first, as the water that freezes is inside the sealed part (in the tank gas itself!)

#21 Senior Tech

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 05:12 PM

Referencing your test in your pool on provoking a freeze up in a big block piston first stage, I assume your pool is full of fresh water and not salt water. As you apparently already know you can create a freeze up in fresh water more readily than in salt. Incidently Scubapro does understand and recognize that you can have a freeze up in fresh water before you do in salt water and they have mentioned this in recent seminars. I do agree that a sealed first stage is preferable for ice diving and extremely cold water diving and we are mostly on the same page, but let it be known to all that care, most of my body parts freeze up long before any of this is relevant. Cold water to me is anything under 78 degrees! :teeth:

However as Dive Girl mentioned, diving in the cold water of the PNW i.e. 39 degree salt water or warmer should not cause a freeze up with the new style piston designs.
"People ask how long I've been repairing regulators...that's easy...ever since there was only one brand and model commercially available." -JC

#22 Dive_Girl

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 06:52 PM

However as Dive Girl mentioned, diving in the cold water of the PNW i.e. 39 degree salt water or warmer should not cause a freeze up with the new style piston designs.

Incidentally I have never experienced a freeze up on my MK25. In addition to diving salt water in the winter here (39-42 degrees average), I have dove my reg many many times in fresh water lakes here during the winter, where the water temp is 34 degrees. I find it interesting others have had so much difficulty since I'm in cold water all the time and my maintenance routine can be a bit similar to what Trace described above at times....doh!

Although I really like my MK25, I've recently been breaking in my Poseidons.
It's Winter time - you know you're a diver when you're scraping ice off your windshield INSIDE your vehicle...!

Once in a while, it is good to step back, take a breath, and remember to be humble. You'll never know it all - ScubaDadMiami. If you aren't afraid of dying, there is nothing you can't achieve - Lao-tzu. One dog barks at something, the rest bark at him - Chinese Proverb.

#23 peterbj7

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 08:55 AM

I and friends have had several different Mk25s freeze during dives (nothing to do with technique before the dive) in fresh water quarry dives in winter. I won't use them now. Never had a hint of a problem with Mares MR22 (environmentally sealed) or Poseidons.

Interestingly, Scubapro have told me that the trend towards ever smaller second stages is market driven but impairs performance. Their physically larger units in general out-perform their newer smaller ones.

With my own gear I'm always careful to open the tank valve briefly before attaching the reg, especially when boat diving. The water that usually sits inside the opening of the valve otherwise gets forced into the first stage. I've given up trying to get my staff to do the same. But I never had first stage problems before, and now I do.

Another thing is that Mares require users to hold down the purge button when the air is turned on, to reduce the shock loading on the first stage HP seat. I've always done it (with all regs, not just Mares) and have never had an HP seat go. Except on Poseidons, where the problem would seem to be irrelevant. Every Poseidon I've ever owned and not serviced regularly (!) has blown its HP seat after about three years use. But overall they're still easily my favourite regs.

On rinsing, I always get the best sealing "dust" caps for my first stages, and always dunk them. Occasionally I soak them in mild detergent, which stops build-up of limescale. Never had a problem apparently related to rinsing. Once when I dunked a first stage without the dustcap on I simply removed all the hoses and put it on a tank with a low throughflow of air. Worked perfectly afterwards until next service.

Edited by peterbj7, 01 February 2005 - 08:57 AM.


#24 Marvel

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 12:52 PM

With my own gear I'm always careful to open the tank valve briefly before attaching the reg, especially when boat diving.


Great tip, Peter- thanks!
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#25 DMP

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 01:11 PM

However as Dive Girl mentioned, diving in the cold water of the PNW i.e. 39 degree salt water or warmer should not cause a freeze up with the new style piston designs.

Incidentally I have never experienced a freeze up on my MK25. In addition to diving salt water in the winter here (39-42 degrees average), I have dove my reg many many times in fresh water lakes here during the winter, where the water temp is 34 degrees. I find it interesting others have had so much difficulty since I'm in cold water all the time and my maintenance routine can be a bit similar to what Trace described above at times....doh!

Although I really like my MK25, I've recently been breaking in my Poseidons.

Just finished a couple dives this weekend water temps where in the low 30's, my Mark25 did not malfunction at all. Have over 80+ doves on them since this summer. Haven't had a problem with them since owning them. I guess we could say it is out of preference on what manufacturer we choose to use.

#26 Capn Jack

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 05:32 PM

Senior Tech -

I just finished an equipment course, and the instructor was very adamant about soaking the 1st stage in warm water without the dust cover, and using the purge on the 2nd stage to encourage getting water into the parts - CONDITIONAL on having a tank right there to immediately hook up and then pressurize all components, purging dry air through both 2nd stages and the LP line.

Seems that is contrary to everything I've heard, and when I asked him, he said - "well yes grasshopper, but if you have had Salt Water - or even fresh - get into your 1st stage, lines and/or 2nd stages, this will clean it out, and the extremely dry air of the tank does a great job of evaporating the nice clean fresh water you have deliberately introduced. I have been doing this for many years, all over the world, and I find when I overhaul my shop regs (twice/year since they're rentals) - they are very clean internally."

What say ye?
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