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Question about gear use...


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#1 Senior Tech

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 11:13 AM

What's more important? How many dives a regulator has made or how it was stored after that?


Note: I have set this forum up for Senior Tech to help our members learn more about regulator repair, maintenance and care. He will address questions from lay people but will not get into specifics on how to repair regs etc. Occasionally he may address a specific repair related question or comment if he needs to correct a statement or provide more clarification. However most of his time is spent actually repairing regs and since he is a 'repairman's repairman' he often gets the 'worst of the worst' aka your dive shop can't fix it so they send it to Senior Tech kind of repair jobs. That being the case, his contribution to our board will be focused on helping our users learn more about dive gear so that when choosing a particular type of equipment they will be able to pick the right kind of gear to fit their particular requirements such as ice diving or deep diving as well as how to maintain our investment and how to ensure that our gear performs optimally for our enjoyment and safety.

Thank you for your consideration in your comments, requests, and questions.

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Edited by WreckWench, 30 January 2005 - 01:03 PM.

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#2 bluedolphin

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 11:33 AM

Okay I will bite.

I think how you store it between dives is more important. Proper care and storage will enhance the life of the regulator (but that is just my opinion)

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#3 Genesis

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 11:41 AM

Depends...

O-rings (which make the seals) get hard over time and lose their elasticity - which makes them leak.

First stages usually have their valve open when not pressurized, so there's no wear from being stored. However, seconds have their valve CLOSED; as a consequence there IS wear (engraving of the seat) during storage.

How the gear is stored has a bearing on it, of course, but so does time. For first stages I overhaul them when their intermediate pressure is no longer stable. There's a $20 gauge that will tell you this - you connect it to the BC inflator connection, and turn on the gas.

For seconds, when they start to breathe odd I rebuild those.

How often that all ends up being done depends on the brand. In my experience Scubapros want to be rebuilt (their piston firsts) roughly annually or after 50 dives, which is a bit frequent for my taste. My Apeks DS4s, on the other hand, haven't had to be touched since I've owned 'em - I switched to those after getting tired of tearing down the Mk10s and Mk25s.

#4 Latitude Adjustment

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 02:32 PM

Don't do like my daughter and use your mesh gear bag as a door stop, the cat layed on top and everything was filled with cat hair and dirt. :o
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#5 Dive_Girl

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 04:14 PM

How often that all ends up being done depends on the brand. In my experience Scubapros want to be rebuilt (their piston firsts) roughly annually or after 50 dives, which is a bit frequent for my taste. My Apeks DS4s, on the other hand, haven't had to be touched since I've owned 'em - I switched to those after getting tired of tearing down the Mk10s and Mk25s.

That's interesting about you having to rebuild your MK25. Until recently, I dove and taught on an MK25 putting hundreds and hundreds of underwater hours on it and it has never had to be rebuilt or hardly adjusted. I wish I could say that after dives and in-between dive days that I was diligent about it's upkeep and storing it in the most optimal postition...etc., but honestly it was quick rinses and convenient storage. Although I am not partial to much else ScubaPro, I find my MK25 a very solid, convenient, and reliable little reg.
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#6 DMP

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 04:38 PM

What's more important? How many dives a regulator has made or how it was stored after that?

I would say it depends on both, how often it is used and how you take care of your equipment. Working in a LDS you see all sorts of things that come in from not cleaning your equipment as directed or improper storage such as, the ever so popular storing your reg with the adjustment knob cranked all the way down ruining the spring inside. Repeated use of your equipment does cause component wear, which does require replacement and adjustment.

#7 Genesis

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 05:02 PM

How often that all ends up being done depends on the brand.  In my experience Scubapros want to be rebuilt (their piston firsts) roughly annually or after 50 dives, which is a bit frequent for my taste.  My Apeks DS4s, on the other hand, haven't had to be touched since I've owned 'em - I switched to those after getting tired of tearing down the Mk10s and Mk25s.

That's interesting about you having to rebuild your MK25. Until recently, I dove and taught on an MK25 putting hundreds and hundreds of underwater hours on it and it has never had to be rebuilt or hardly adjusted. I wish I could say that after dives and in-between dive days that I was diligent about it's upkeep and storing it in the most optimal postition...etc., but honestly it was quick rinses and convenient storage. Although I am not partial to much else ScubaPro, I find my MK25 a very solid, convenient, and reliable little reg.

Did you check the IP stability?

I'm a stickler on it. If its creeping, it gets rebuilt. That was where I had the problem. Close examination showed that the seats were getting munched. SP has released several "updates" for various related issues over the years, but I have no idea if they've ever really fixed it or not.

Its not a big deal if you're breathing off it all the time, but you could have a slight freeflow if you let it sit pressurized with this going on.....

The Mk10s (I own several) do the same thing, although the seat and piston design are slightly different (round-edge .vs. knife-edge, and floating .vs. fixed seat)

All-in-all they aren't bad regs - they're nice and responsive. Not suited for cold water, but then again, no balanced piston really is - but since I don't dive in that sort of conditions, that's not a factor for me.

I found that I preferred the way the DS-4 and TX50 breathe to the Mk25/G250. I hated the S600 and G250HP - that plastic airtube gives me horrid cotton-mouth.

This is a very individual thing though - fun2dive doesn't care for the TX50s at all, and prefers the G250s! Go figure....

#8 Dive_Girl

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 05:13 PM

All-in-all they aren't bad regs - they're nice and responsive.  Not suited for cold water, but then again, no balanced piston really is - but since I don't dive in that sort of conditions, that's not a factor for me.

hmmmmm....are you talking about the MK10 only or both the MK10 and the MK25? If you are talking about the MK25 (which is all I feel comfortable commenting on as I have never dove an MK10), you should maybe look at where I am posting from. If I log 20 warm water dives in a year (for me, water 70 degrees and up is warm - yes fresh water Florida, I'm talking 'bout you), I am lucky.
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#9 fun2dive

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 05:33 PM

So far, I really like the MK25 and MK10's. Of course I am doing most of my diving in 70 degree + water (ok 68 in the springs near us). I have the G250 2nd stages, and they breathe fine for me!!!

After every dive I cover the 1st stage, then rinse (soak) in fresh water shake and let dry.

So far it has been working well.

#10 Dive_Girl

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 06:41 PM

So far, I really like the MK25 and MK10's.  Of course I am doing most of my diving in 70 degree + water (ok 68 in the springs near us).  I have the G250 2nd stages, and they breathe fine for me!!!

After every dive I cover the 1st stage, then rinse (soak) in fresh water shake and let dry.

So far it has been working well.

Yep Stacy (excuse me, no E!), that's exactly where in Florida I was referencing..... :o Argh! Darn you and your easy access to warm water!! :teeth:

Hey you brought up a point I'm curious about. I teach my students to only quick rinse regs that are off a tank avoiding dunking the first stage. When soaking a regs, I tell them to do so while they are pressurized on a tank (ponies work well for this). I do the same. I won't soak regs even if the first stage is protected as I have been told that moisture can work up into the first stage. Senior Tech, this sort of has to do with storing regs. Am I being too conservative??
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#11 fun2dive

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 08:19 PM

My regs are din's, with screw covers. Don't know if that makes any difference. After diving in the nice salt water of the Gulf we usually soak everything at least 2 hours in nice fresh water. That is why they put bathtubs in homes, right. When is the last time you took a bath instead of a shower? It has been ages for me. Of course with the gear in or around the tub...

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#12 Genesis

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 08:57 PM

If your covers don't work, do something about that. Fun2dive's and mine are all DINs with screw-down delrin covers - they're solid. Just don't push the purges on the second stages when they're in the tank. Scubapro has a decent screw-down cap for their yoke regs that seals very well. There are other manufacturers that don't do nearly as good a job.

A dunk with a tank on it is very nice, and optimal (while the air is on) Now figure out how you're going to do that at most private homes. Not realistic.

The problem is that if you don't get the salt out of there you will get corrosion in a piston reg where the large end of the piston rides. Once this eats through the chrome plating the reg will no longer seal, as the O-ring's sealing surface has been destroyed - and that part is expensive enough (the main body piece) that once that happens you may as well throw it out.

The same thing happens to seconds with a metal airtube or other metal parts under the cover. If salt is allowed to remain in there it will corrode those pieces; that corrosion is often invisible until you have it torn down for maintenance, at which point the tech goes "eeeeeewwww!" :cool2: Most times a corroded second can be salvaged though, although in severe situations the crown may need to be replaced if its made of brass (that's a fairly cheap part though)

NO balanced piston is suited for cold water, unless you add an "environmental kit" (basically, you fill the environmental chamber with grease, so no water can get in there, then put on a trim ring to keep it from oozing out all over everything - it still does ooze, just not as much) That's a hellacious mess to clean up on every annual though, it will leak a bit in your gear bag or on the shelf, particularly if it gets hot (e.g. you leave it in your car in the summer) and if its silicone grease using the reg with Nitrox is probably a really bad idea (oxygen and silicone grease get along real well...) If you use Christolube for the grease (compatable with elevated O2s) you're going to end up using $30-40 worth of it for each time you overhaul! That gets expensive FAST. Of course in warm water none of this matters; reg freezeups are pretty tough to provoke until the water is colder than the low 50s. The problem with a balanced piston is that by definition the outside water has to get into the reg and bear on the back side of the piston to provide the balance force - that water can freeze, and if it does then the piston can bind up and be unable to move. The result is usually that the reg stops sealing off the high pressure and you get a massive freeflow, although a lock-up (no gas delivered at all!) is theoretically possible.

The MK10, 10+, 20 and 25 are very close cousins. The 10+ onward all use the same seat, although SP doesn't tell you that and they've made small changes in the design over the years without being real forthcoming about exactly what they are. The 20 and 25 have a "composite" piston (there are several iterations of this around in an attempt to control freezing - see above - it doesn't work and never will) and a pair of fiddly little plastic bushings surrounding the high pressure O-ring instead of the O-ring riding directly in a machined groove in the body (MK10, 10+) I've been told that the reason for the change was that technicians were being intemperate with tools while removing that O-ring during overhauls, scoring the groove, which then destroys the body as the HP O-ring will no longer seal. The cynic in me also says that SP developed the 20 and 25 because the original patents that were on the Mk 5/10 series ran out and there were a dozen clones of them suddenly available, so they had to do something to differentiate themselves even if it was all marketing-speak.

I prefer the 10s and 10+s over the 25 because the 10s and 10+s are dirt simple to overhaul and have fewer fiddly little parts which IMHO do nothing of value, yet they perform just as well. They're also really easy to find at a nice price on the used market. Finally, the overhaul kits for the 10s contain three seats, and depending on what you want the IP to be you can almost always use two of the three in a given reg, so you get two overhauls out of one kit (O-rings are generic and available from various places.) This makes them less expensive to maintain over time.

No piston reg is appropriate for cold water (under 50-55F) - for that you want a sealed, balanced diaphram such as the Apeks DS4. A sealed, balanced diaphram design allows no water inside the regulator at all, and thus is immune to freeze-ups so long as the gas in your tank has a sufficiently low dew-point.

(This does not mean that the second stage can't freeze. It can and that's independant of the first stage design, of course. But most freeze-ups in cold water are actually first-stage freezes.)

Hope this helps.

#13 TraceMalin

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 03:40 AM

Definitely how they are stored. My regulators get beat to death and used just about daily (except now when it's below freezing) in salt water, chlorine, fresh water and who knows what else. My idea of maintenance is taking an Allen wrench to a slight freeflow. They freeze solid with ice, lay out to bake in the sun, stay hitched to my tanks to left in my truck, get caked with mud, get dropped, and will work great as long as I never clean, service and store them properly. Go Zeagle Flathead VI!

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#14 Genesis

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 10:49 AM

'Dem Zeagles are basically Apeks (same design) in a different package.

That sealed first is mighty nice in terms of keeping crud away from the parts that matter.... :birthday:

#15 WreckWench

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 01:04 PM

Note: I have set this forum up for Senior Tech to help our members learn more about regulator repair, maintenance and care. He will address questions from lay people but will not get into specifics on how to repair regs etc. Occasionally he may address a specific repair related question or comment if he needs to correct a statement or provide more clarification. However most of his time is spent actually repairing regs and since he is a 'repairman's repairman' he often gets the 'worst of the worst' aka your dive shop can't fix it so they send it to Senior Tech kind of repair jobs. That being the case, his contribution to our board will be focused on helping our users learn more about dive gear so that when choosing a particular type of equipment they will be able to pick the right kind of gear to fit their particular requirements such as ice diving or deep diving as well as how to maintain our investment and how to ensure that our gear performs optimally for our enjoyment and safety.

Thank you for your consideration in your comments, requests, and questions.

-Kamala aka Wreck Wench

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