121 replies to this topic

[WreckWench]

Maybe Kamala would set up a separate trip during the summer for those single parents with kids complete with dive nannies instead of cabana boys.

Actually I was hoping for the nannies to watch the kids while I get to play with the cabana boys!!! Just kidding Genesis!

Ok, there has been much talk about this topic since I was last here.

First, there are several parents out there that would be interested in bringing their kids along.

Second, there are several singles that would not like any kids around (or would prefer to eat them).

What do you think about this:
There are tons of activities near any of the FL dive sites for kids. If we had some sitters (nannies) to take the kids to do something fun during the day while we are diving (no kids on the boat) and to stay with the kids in the evening after they are put to sleep (sleepover style). Then the adults with kids could choose which activities to partake without kids and what they want to do with the kids. It will also give those with spouses that don't dive activities to choose while still being a part of the group. Those without kids would not be bothered by kids except during the continental breakfast at the hotel (or you could stay at a different hotel and deal with kids outside our group). I haven't thought all of this through, but it is a start...

Fun2dive you have started an excellent thread! I did not realize that we have so much possible interest in doing a parents with children type of dive trip. It appears that you've tapped into a need and a possible future dive trip that will cater to parents with kids...and maybe to Neptuners suggestion...kids of all ages where some can be kid sitters for reduced rates etc.

I think that for this particular trip in May that we have our hands full arranging for dive operators and hotels that will accommodate people being in town for 3-5 nights...diving 1-4 days...some wanting reefs only...some wanting wrecks only...some wanting both....and some wanting only operators that will allow 'dubs'!

I am pretty good at organizing things...look at our last Cozy trip...5 different arrival dates...6 different departure dates...4 different trip configurations...boats by skill levels on some days and entirely as a group on others...32 people...optional dives...nitrox....specialty certifications...daily happy hours...dinner reservations nightly and that was just the beginning....BUT...I can only tackle so much and feel confident that I can deliver a good experience for everyone!

My goal is to intermingle new divers and experienced divers....as well as 'technical' divers and recreational divers...so that ALL have a good time and a fun and enjoyable vacation. I am not quite ready to comingle kids into this equation just yet.

I am intrigued by a parents with kids diving trip and I think from the sounds of things we could justify doing a specialty trip for single parents with kids but we'll have some issues to work out. I hope people keep discussing options and ideas...I promise that they will all be taken into consideration as I really do like the idea.

The biggest challenge I see will be cleaning up our single's innuendos...afterall...we are pretty open here but since we do not allow members under 18 to join the site...all participants on a "SingleParentswithKids" trip would have to clean up the joking and sexual banter we engage in. AND I'm not sure we would be successful in comingling munchkins with just anybody on this site!

That however is not a bad thing...we are afterall Single and Buddyless Divers first and foremost.

More thoughts....

Edited by Marvel, 05 February 2005 - 02:51 PM.

[RICHinNC]

A lot of costs for trips are spread out over the charges of all the participants. Kamala, if you did something like this, are you indicating that you would spread the cost of the "nannies" out over those with no kids as well??

rich

[fun2dive]

A lot of costs for trips are spread out over the charges of all the participants. Kamala, if you did something like this, are you indicating that you would spread the cost of the "nannies" out over those with no kids as well??

rich

Rich,

That would not be fair to those without kids. We would be expected to pay for services rendered!

I would not have you pay for me bringing my kids and if any other parents do, they are WRONG!

[Genesis]

A lot of costs for trips are spread out over the charges of all the participants. Kamala, if you did something like this, are you indicating that you would spread the cost of the "nannies" out over those with no kids as well??

rich

Seocnding what fun2dive said, I certainly hope NOT!

Speaking of which, can I ask a general question on trips here? Are all paying the same freight, or are there "comps" that go into the mix (for which we all pay)?

[WreckWench]

A lot of costs for trips are spread out over the charges of all the participants.  Kamala,  if you did something like this,  are you indicating that you would spread the cost of the "nannies"  out over those with no kids as well??

rich

If we did a trip for Parents and kids those costs would generally be incorporated into the trip with the idea being that all or most of the participants were parents.

It may be such a thing as to offer a diver with kid rate and a diver without kid rate...that is a good idea. Once again...thanks for all the feedback.

Seeing I am on the "pro" side of having munchkins around (missing my kids). I am about to be finished with my Dive Con certification and would be happy to render my services to teach snorkeling and maybe if we can get an instructor to agree to it maybe a discover scuba session as well during one of these trips. Would not be a problem with me, as long as everybody has a great time.

And we may do something more adhoc where we can tap into the generosity of our members.

SD has two kinds of trips...very structured trips aka national and international and more adhoc types of trips...aka regional.

How we'd do a Parents with Kid's Trip would depend on interest, diving destination and I'm sure would encompass several types of trip formats.

[DMP]

Seeing I am on the "pro" side of having munchkins around (missing my kids). I am about to be finished with my Dive Con certification and would be happy to render my services to teach snorkeling and maybe if we can get an instructor to agree to it maybe a discover scuba session as well during one of these trips. Would not be a problem with me, as long as everybody has a great time.

[WreckWench]

Speaking of which, can I ask a general question on trips here? Are all paying the same freight, or are there "comps" that go into the mix (for which we all pay)?

Good question. There are several kinds of dive trips...

1. Friends
2. Dive Clubs
3. Professionally Organized aka Shops, Travel groups, etc.

Each type of trip has advantages and disadvantages depending on what you are looking for or trying to accomplish. And each type of trip offers differing levels of service or consistency or frequency.

SD was created to fill a void in the industry...and that is to offer organized dive trips for single and buddyless divers on a frequent basis to a variety of different locations doing a variety of different types and styles of diving appealing to different price ranges and diving abilities.

At the time we formed SD, no one to my knowledge was offering any regular dive trips for single and buddyless divers. Now I think there are a few individuals who plan a dive trip for their club or online community and encourage others to come along with them. The difference is that the individual planning the trip may act as a group lead but is not really a group leader. They generally accept no responsibility for securing spots for other divers, they will not pay for spots that aren't filled when taking an entire boat, they don't front the deposits and progress payments, they will not usually solicit where others want to go and when and they do not carry insurance for issues that might arise.

SD offers several types of trips...

1. Member Initiated Dive Trips Click here for more details on member trips.
2. Regional Events/Activities and Dive Trips
3. National Dive Trips
4. International Dive Trips


Each type of trip has a different price/cost model to it with number one being the least and number four being the most. However, the resorts and dive operators will usually reward you for bringing a certain number of members by giving you a free spot. That free spot is usually used by the trip coordinator for all the work involved in planning, organizing and in my case...the risk of eating any spots that are not filled once committed to the dive operator.

However SD has been able to obtain additional discounts due to size and frequency and passes those discounts onto it members...much as a dive club does. We offer trips where our members are very involved in the planning and details much like a group of friends do when they plan a trip and we guarantee that once a trip is posted that it will run regardless of how many people show up. And not even dive shops do that. (And we've eaten a number of spots on trips last year in the process of getting to where we are now.)

So yes...there are some costs spread out amongst the divers on a trip. Is it a huge amount? Usually you won't even know its there. Sometimes when there are no free spots from the vendors then we do a small mark up usually 10% to offset the costs associated with the trip. However someone else has done the hotel and diving arrangements, paid the vendors, organized the bbq's & meets and greets and otherwise made sure that you all have a good time. Regionals are a good example of that. While we may have 30-40 people in attendance...only a fraction of them might dive on the weekdays wheresas they all might dive on the weekends. That plays havoc with the dive operators not to mention your fun and loving Dive Coordinating Wench...but since our Regional trips are very important to the overall SD community, its a labor of love we don't mind. And...we are actually good at it. But don't take my word...read for yourself!

Click here for last year's Florida Trip Report!

I hope that answered your question. -ww

[Walter]

I can't speak for other instructors, but I don't teach resort courses, I don't believe them to be safe. I don't teach children unless their parents are present. I don't teach anyone younger than 12, anyone younger than 16 must demonstrate unusual maturity before I'll agree to teach them. I think the current trend of teaching children to dive is one we will come to regret.

[Genesis]

I can't speak for other instructors, but I don't teach resort courses, I don't believe them to be safe.  I don't teach children unless their parents are present.  I don't teach anyone younger than 12, anyone younger than 16 must demonstrate unusual maturity before I'll agree to teach them.  I think the current trend of teaching children to dive is one we will come to regret.

I agree in the general sense with all of that.

I've seen examples of it too. A friend of mine allowed her son to be certified. He nearly cacked himself once in the following year, and was damn lucky not to have played pretzel on another occasion. He shrugged both incidents off; both were traditional "Come to Jesus" events for most divers, but neither really 'registered' with him in terms of the seriousness of the incident. In one of the cases, he went in with a nearly-expended tank and didn't look at his gauge until he reached the bottom - at 80 feet! In the other, he grossly miscomputed his repet dive table and ended up overstaying the NDL by more than 10 minutes, blowing off a good 15 minutes of required deco, and not figuring it out until he was back on the surface!

On the other hand, I know another kid who certified at 14 who is one of the better, and more careful, divers that I've run across. She knows her limits, doesn't push them, has no problem with sticking up a thumb if not comfortable in a given situation and kept her cool when, during her last cert dive, the instructor did something stupid (incredibly so) and the other students with her attempted to bolt while grabbing onto her. I witnessed the latter event and was able to stop what would have otherwise been certain serious injury or even death. Thank God the other students (also teens) were far enough 'gone' mentally to forget that they had power inflator buttons!

So while in general I'd say "yes" to your POV Walter, I'd also say that there are exceptions, and that a blanket prohibition isn't appropriate. However, if you're a parent with kids, you need to be brutally honest with yourself about their ability to handle diving. While there are also plenty of adults who can't really "handle it" too, until the young ones are 18 its the parent's job to say "no" if that's the case.....

BTW, thanks WW for the explanation. I know that many ops offer "comp'ed" spots; part of the question related to whether or not it went beyond that. I've had shops try to sell me on trips where they're seriously profiting on them beyond the comp'd spot - you get quoted a price of $X for the trip, and find out later that operator is charging the shop $Y per person PLUS comping them a spot, and the rest (sometimes a not insignificant amount either) is going straight into the shop's pocket as part of their operating profit.

Edited by Walter, 02 February 2005 - 11:00 AM.

[Walter]

So while in general I'd say "yes" to your POV Walter, I'd also say that there are exceptions, and that a blanket prohibition isn't appropriate.

........anyone younger than 16 must demonstrate unusual maturity before I'll agree to teach them.

That does allow for exceptionally mature children to learn to dive and should put us in total agreement on this subject..

[RICHinNC]

A lot of costs for trips are spread out over the charges of all the participants.  Kamala,  if you did something like this,  are you indicating that you would spread the cost of the "nannies"  out over those with no kids as well??

rich

If we did a trip for Parents and kids those costs would generally be incorporated into the trip with the idea being that all or most of the participants were parents.

It may be such a thing as to offer a diver with kid rate and a diver without kid rate...that is a good idea. Once again...thanks for all the feedback.

Seeing I am on the "pro" side of having munchkins around (missing my kids). I am about to be finished with my Dive Con certification and would be happy to render my services to teach snorkeling and maybe if we can get an instructor to agree to it maybe a discover scuba session as well during one of these trips. Would not be a problem with me, as long as everybody has a great time.

And we may do something more adhoc where we can tap into the generosity of our members.

SD has two kinds of trips...very structured trips aka national and international and more adhoc types of trips...aka regional.

How we'd do a Parents with Kid's Trip would depend on interest, diving destination and I'm sure would encompass several types of trip formats.

I guess I should take that as a yes.

[DMP]

I guess you will hate diving with me......cause I am one big kid when it comes to diving

[WreckWench]

A lot of costs for trips are spread out over the charges of all the participants.  Kamala,  if you did something like this,  are you indicating that you would spread the cost of the "nannies"  out over those with no kids as well??

rich

If we did a trip for Parents and kids those costs would generally be incorporated into the trip with the idea being that all or most of the participants were parents.

It may be such a thing as to offer a diver with kid rate and a diver without kid rate...that is a good idea. Once again...thanks for all the feedback.

Seeing I am on the "pro" side of having munchkins around (missing my kids). I am about to be finished with my Dive Con certification and would be happy to render my services to teach snorkeling and maybe if we can get an instructor to agree to it maybe a discover scuba session as well during one of these trips. Would not be a problem with me, as long as everybody has a great time.

And we may do something more adhoc where we can tap into the generosity of our members.

SD has two kinds of trips...very structured trips aka national and international and more adhoc types of trips...aka regional.

How we'd do a Parents with Kid's Trip would depend on interest, diving destination and I'm sure would encompass several types of trip formats.

I guess I should take that as a yes.

Hey darling...I dont' think anything is set in stone but I can see us doing it both ways thanks to your suggestion.

The real answer is....it depends on the trip and it depends on how the trip is set up!

[DiveCandy]

Can you imagine the education a kid could get sitting between ScubaHawk and DiveCandy!

Hey now!! I resemble that remark!

Kerry

[WreckWench]

BTW, thanks WW for the explanation. I know that many ops offer "comp'ed" spots; part of the question related to whether or not it went beyond that. I've had shops try to sell me on trips where they're seriously profiting on them beyond the comp'd spot - you get quoted a price of $X for the trip, and find out later that operator is charging the shop $Y per person PLUS comping them a spot, and the rest (sometimes a not insignificant amount either) is going straight into the shop's pocket as part of their operating profit.

I guess it depends on what you call 'seriously profiting' on a trip. Many trips have more hidden costs and risks than most divers are aware of or care to know about. And if a shop does profit on a trip you would not be able to obtain that reduced rate unless you ran your own trip.

And here is the funny part...in every industry except diving...it is not uncommon for a business to charge money for a service in order to stay in business. Not only is it not uncommon...it is expected in our free enterprise society.

However for some strange reason in diving this is not the case...people do not expect you to make a reasonable profit. Yes I'm sure you can find examples of a diveshop trying to make an unreasonable profit but I'll show you plenty of industries that truly make an unreasonable profit. In those latter instances the stockholders love them and they are heros. In this case the LDS is scum for ripping its clients off.

When its all said and done you have to decide if the add'l price beyond the comp'd spot is reasonable for the services you will be receiving. For starters a comp'd spot only comes with a certain number of spots committed too and paid for. What if one spot doesn't fill? Now the shop has to eat that spot. Well no problem you say because now the shop had one free spot....they can pay like the rest of us. However that being the case do you mind if they don't do any work since they are not getting compensated? Of course not...who would go on a trip where no one was responsible for problem resolution, setting things up, helping out etc. Now what if the shop doesn't fill two spots? So in addition to working for free they are losing money in the deal. REAL MONEY I might add. Well you can imagine that this doesn't fly too well.

And I'm sure you know that many comps run on different scales so you may get the diving free but not the hotel and most certainly never any airfare. So if a shop marks up a trip over the comp'd spot that markup has to cover:

•airfare if any
•hotel if not covered by the comp
•other diving incidentals needed by the leader to run the trip
•insurance for the trip leader
•risk/value compensation for putting monies upfront, promoting the trip, and eating any spots that don't fill.

Its no wonder that dive shops cancel trips even when people are booked on them because they aren't filling properly. And if they do fill it...can you really begrudge them a little profit? Afterall that is the magic ingredient in the American Dream!