15 replies to this topic

[JohnnyC]

Hey everyone!

I realize we have had this topic many time on other various threads, but I was hoping you could recommend the best way to go in your opinion. Eventually I will have alot of time on my hands when I graduate the fire academy in about 2 1/2 months. I will then be working about 2 days a week. I was wondering if I should go to the DM level or go to technical diving. I really like talking to other people about diving, and get excited about it. Usually my excitement is infectious and they want to go diving. I love to teach people and realize DM is a step closer to instructor which I feel I would enjoy. On the other hand, I love to push myself and see how far I can go. Probably why I'm becomming a fireman. I would love t do more technical diving, and possibly see if I couldn't freelance on the side as a job. Near the Houston ship channel and thinking also about non-destructive testing and all that. But I would love gain as much knowledge as possible. So now you know my thoughts, and I'll let you tell me what you guys think. I appreciate it.

Absent minded ramblings

Johnny

[Diverbrian]

I did my Advanced Nitrox in the same time frame as my DiveCon.

To be honest, they were both valuable courses in their own way. Given a choice, I would personally do the tech stuff first if I had known then what I now know. The professional stuff can get to be a little too much like agency BS for my blood sometimes. Like many people, I can't find an agency that I completely agree with and am getting to point where I prefer technical diving anyways.

But, I like to teach and talk diving as well. So, when I get closer to moving on with my life (ie. retiring from my day job in several years) I will probably take the instructor's course and get the certification to actually teach instead of just helping with classes. But, for now, the divemaster (most agencies name for my cert) route is perfect. I get to teach, but not so much that I get burnt out doing it. I have seen too many of my fellow DiveCons progress to instructor and get burnt out on teaching as they never seem to dive without students in tow anymore. I don't have that problem as I don't have quite that much invested into my professional training to where I feel the need to be a professional educator all of the time. So, I do my advanced/ tech dives and work with classes only when I want to for $40.00/yr. and CPR/first aid refreshers every two years. The shop keeps me on a group liability policy so I don't have to pay that fee! Most of our instructors spend so much time and money in internship (nine months to a year on top of their time as DiveCons) that they seem to feel that need and worry about liability issues more.

So, bearing in mind the positives and negatives of both, you will likely need to make up your own mind and it will require more soul-searching on your part than anyone else can do for you.

[peterbj7]

I agree with Brian. Do them in parallel or go for tech first. You haven't got to go deeply into tech, as that's not really the point. If you're not already a nitrox diver then do that - not a lot to choose between the agencies, though the nitrox course from a serious tech agency like IANTD will have much more content than a strictly recreational one from someone like PADI - content that you'll need to learn in your next course anyway.

Then do IANTD Advanced Nitrox or equivalent and then move to Technical Diver or Normoxic Trimix Diver (very similar courses). Then stop and just dive, and consolidate.

No reason why you shouldn't do DM (which is what most agencies call it, though clearly not all - the assistant professional stage) as well, and in fact the courses mesh quite well if done in parallel given a decent timeframe. If you're fitting it all in into weekends and the odd evening then do it in bite-size chunks that you can complete before moving on, or you may feel it's never-ending.

If you get to the stage where you are working sometimes as a DM and otherwise doing "light" technical diving (air depths, which does after all cover a great deal) then after some experience you may want to move to the instructor stage. At that point you will be able to become an instructor in both disciplines (rec & tech) fairly easily.

Of course, as a firefighter you may find that Public Safety Diving enables you to combine your vocation and your sport. Ask locally what opportunities may exist and how you could best line yourself up for them. That way you won't be training randomly but will have a purpose and a goal. One of the leading instructors in the PSD field also lives in Houston and you could do worse than get in touch with him. He posts here and on other forums as "BigJetDriver" or something similar.

[Genesis]

My view is that DM is useful as the necessary step to an Instructor rating. If you want to be a professional, then it is the appropriate path.

However, go into this with your eyes wide open. It is nearly impossible to make a decent living doing this as your "day job" at ANY level, and certainly at the open water level. It can be done at some of the higher technical levels (e.g. cave), but you're talking about a very, very long road to get there.

If you want to do it because you love it, then that's different. Have at it. But know what you're doing - and why.

If you want to improve your diving dramatically, consider learning how to cavedive. The precision necessary to do so cleanly is significant.

Edited by Genesis, 20 February 2005 - 12:37 PM.

[Brinybay]

Hey everyone!

I realize we have had this topic many time on other various threads, but I was hoping you could recommend the best way to go in your opinion. Eventually I will have alot of time on my hands when I graduate the fire academy in about 2 1/2 months. I will then be working about 2 days a week. I was wondering if I should go to the DM level or go to technical diving. I really like talking to other people about diving, and get excited about it. Usually my excitement is infectious and they want to go diving. I love to teach people and realize DM is a step closer to instructor which I feel I would enjoy. On the other hand, I love to push myself and see how far I can go. Probably why I'm becomming a fireman. I would love t do more technical diving, and possibly see if I couldn't freelance on the side as a job. Near the Houston ship channel and thinking also about non-destructive testing and all that. But I would love gain as much knowledge as possible. So now you know my thoughts, and I'll let you tell me what you guys think. I appreciate it.

Absent minded ramblings

Johnny

Go tech. I hated being a DM, but that was me. But don't count on making any money doing tech stuff. It's still recreational diving. To get paid doing work underwater using diving skills, you need commercial training, which is a whole 'nuther ball game.

[StuShark]

remember also, the tech route could cost you many $$$$ - the equipment and training (and then diving) are significantly more $ than recreational. Depending on the type of gear you currently own/dive with, and your disposable cash, you may need to make a gradual transition into tech (then you may want to do the DM / tech thing in parallel)

[Diverbrian]

remember also, the tech route could cost you many $$$$ - the equipment and training (and then diving) are significantly more $ than recreational. Depending on the type of gear you currently own/dive with, and your disposable cash, you may need to make a gradual transition into tech (then you may want to do the DM / tech thing in parallel)

Yes and no!

Tech equipment tends to be more flexible it's uses than recreational gear. For instance, with one BP I can simply change the wing to dive heavy doubles or add a single tank adapter and use the smaller wing to dive a single tank. There doesn't tend to be as much clutter that needs to be tied down after learning to tech dive. You learn what is really needed and take ONLY that instead of every dive gadget that comes out.

If I had learned to tech dive earlier, there are a lot of "toys" that now sit at the bottom of my dive bag that would have stayed on a dive shop shelf.

On the other hand, you are correct about the costs of the types of dives. I shudder to think about the costs of Trimix for me this summer.

[Walter]

What is your goal?

[DMP]

remember also, the tech route could cost you many $$$$ - the equipment and training (and then diving) are significantly more $ than recreational. Depending on the type of gear you currently own/dive with, and your disposable cash, you may need to make a gradual transition into tech (then you may want to do the DM / tech thing in parallel)

Yes and no!

Tech equipment tends to be more flexible it's uses than recreational gear. For instance, with one BP I can simply change the wing to dive heavy doubles or add a single tank adapter and use the smaller wing to dive a single tank. There doesn't tend to be as much clutter that needs to be tied down after learning to tech dive. You learn what is really needed and take ONLY that instead of every dive gadget that comes out.

If I had learned to tech dive earlier, there are a lot of "toys" that now sit at the bottom of my dive bag that would have stayed on a dive shop shelf.

On the other hand, you are correct about the costs of the types of dives. I shudder to think about the costs of Trimix for me this summer.

Forgot to mention that some dive shops that you work for will get your gear at a resonable price (not what is on the price tag either). As for EAN and Tri Mix fills, the shop I work for allows me all the gass I want. There are pro's and con's where ever you go. I have settled for the DM course and have steadily worked my way up in Tech diving secondly.

[Diverbrian]

remember also, the tech route could cost you many $$$$ - the equipment and training (and then diving) are significantly more $ than recreational. Depending on the type of gear you currently own/dive with, and your disposable cash, you may need to make a gradual transition into tech (then you may want to do the DM / tech thing in parallel)

Yes and no!

Tech equipment tends to be more flexible it's uses than recreational gear. For instance, with one BP I can simply change the wing to dive heavy doubles or add a single tank adapter and use the smaller wing to dive a single tank. There doesn't tend to be as much clutter that needs to be tied down after learning to tech dive. You learn what is really needed and take ONLY that instead of every dive gadget that comes out.

If I had learned to tech dive earlier, there are a lot of "toys" that now sit at the bottom of my dive bag that would have stayed on a dive shop shelf.

On the other hand, you are correct about the costs of the types of dives. I shudder to think about the costs of Trimix for me this summer.

Forgot to mention that some dive shops that you work for will get your gear at a resonable price (not what is on the price tag either). As for EAN and Tri Mix fills, the shop I work for allows me all the gass I want. There are pro's and con's where ever you go. I have settled for the DM course and have steadily worked my way up in Tech diving secondly.

BTW, I still could use that contact info on the gas blender course .

Our shop isn't that nice (or I am not active enough). Instructors get those considerations, not the DiveCon's. That is the incentive program for me to go to instructor, I guess.

Until I locate a source of helium on my own (which isn't far away) I have to buy it off my tech instructor.

[DMP]

remember also, the tech route could cost you many $$$$ - the equipment and training (and then diving) are significantly more $ than recreational. Depending on the type of gear you currently own/dive with, and your disposable cash, you may need to make a gradual transition into tech (then you may want to do the DM / tech thing in parallel)

Yes and no!

Tech equipment tends to be more flexible it's uses than recreational gear. For instance, with one BP I can simply change the wing to dive heavy doubles or add a single tank adapter and use the smaller wing to dive a single tank. There doesn't tend to be as much clutter that needs to be tied down after learning to tech dive. You learn what is really needed and take ONLY that instead of every dive gadget that comes out.

If I had learned to tech dive earlier, there are a lot of "toys" that now sit at the bottom of my dive bag that would have stayed on a dive shop shelf.

On the other hand, you are correct about the costs of the types of dives. I shudder to think about the costs of Trimix for me this summer.

Forgot to mention that some dive shops that you work for will get your gear at a resonable price (not what is on the price tag either). As for EAN and Tri Mix fills, the shop I work for allows me all the gass I want. There are pro's and con's where ever you go. I have settled for the DM course and have steadily worked my way up in Tech diving secondly.

BTW, I still could use that contact info on the gas blender course .

Our shop isn't that nice (or I am not active enough). Instructors get those considerations, not the DiveCon's. That is the incentive program for me to go to instructor, I guess.

Until I locate a source of helium on my own (which isn't far away) I have to buy it off my tech instructor.

Give me a call, you got the number. I will give ya the info that you want.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I'd go tech first. To become a professional, you want to hone your skills to perfection.

Think you know it all? Enroll in cavern and then cave diving. You will be pretty humbled after you show up, thinking your skills are peak and you already know it all.

Once you have your skills mastered to this level, you are ready to start becoming a professional. That's when you can take your DM training.

[Diverbrian]

I'd go tech first. To become a professional, you want to hone your skills to perfection.

Think you know it all? Enroll in cavern and then cave diving. You will be pretty humbled after you show up, thinking your skills are peak and you already know it all.

Once you have your skills mastered to this level, you are ready to start becoming a professional. That's when you can take your DM training.

Some areas of the county don't have caverns or caves to train in. Without significant travel. the intro tech courses that I could think of would be more than sufficient to humble most divers prior to doing a divemaster course . If that didn't do it, the Instructor Certifier at our shop is pussycat with students and a terror to DiveCon and Instructor Candidates.

But my current location is the reason that I would be lucky to make to Intro to Cave for that line of diving. I get twenty days of vacation per year. Using it continously to go down to Florida to learn to cave dive is not happening. My tech instructor is a cave diver. If I ever get a small fraction of his skill underwater, I will be a very good diver.

The thing about dive pro skills is that when doing skills for tech, speed and precision are of upmost importance. How fast can you do it and do it correctly when you have to?

For class work, you need to learn to divide skills into stages and slow down the performance of them so that students can see what you are doing. Many highly skilled divers still have trouble with that concept and this causes them to have a problem when teaching skills. This is why simply being a great diver does not make one a great dive educator.

[outback]

I would love t do more technical diving, and possibly see if I couldn't freelance on the side as a job. Near the Houston ship channel and thinking also about non-destructive testing and all that. But I would love gain as much knowledge as possible. So now you know my thoughts, and I'll let you tell me what you guys think. I appreciate it.

Absent minded ramblings

Johnny

Hi Johnny. You're Houston based, am I right? Will you be at the HH tonight? If yes, then we should have a chat - our local group is a bunch of DM's and Instructors, and we also have a tech group - some of us just about to do the cavern/cave entry course this weekend. We also have a speaker coming up at our club meeting in April who'll be talking about cave rescue/recovery - which sounds like it'd be right up your street. If you're not at HH, then PM me and I can give you the details.

http://www.chumclub....hread.php?t=142

[Genesis]

I'd go tech first. To become a professional, you want to hone your skills to perfection.

Think you know it all? Enroll in cavern and then cave diving. You will be pretty humbled after you show up, thinking your skills are peak and you already know it all.

Once you have your skills mastered to this level, you are ready to start becoming a professional. That's when you can take your DM training.

You can do Cavern/Intro in three days - if your skills are up to snuff.

If not, you'll likely get a Cavern card only out of it and its possible to fail entirely.

IMHO at least that level of skill in diving is necessary before embarking on being a pro in any respect, whether it be DM or above, even for recreational diving.

If your goal is to learn to do technical diving, I'd take the three days and do the Cavern/Intro class, assuming you think you've got your act together. If you pass, then you might choose Advanced Nitrox/Deco Procedures, which can be done in OW.

IMHO you really need to be able to DIVE before you can safely do deco; if you're unable to hold buoyancy and trim you won't pass Intro, and that's a gating requirement to be able to safely execute decompression dives.

I'm very much anti-card-collecting, in that I find the way the various classes are put together to be silly, and that's when I'm feeling kind. Decompression is decompression - if you screw up you're going to get hurt at best, and maybe dead at worst. All the "staggering" of Trimix and deco classes just looks to this guy like a money grab - you either are good enoiugh to plan and execute a deco dive at the Deco Procedures level or you aren't. I see Cavern/Intro/Full the same way - you either can cavedive at the Intro level or you can't; if you can then you can, if you can't you should fail THERE. I also feel that allowing (or even requiring!) people to use singles with "H" valves in an overhead is stupid - if you're not ready for doubles and/or can't dive 'em competently, you're not ready for any overhead - as such I believe you should have to do at least Intro in double tanks. The additional protocol knowledge for "Apprentice/Full" is neither complicated or not obvious to a thinking person (e.g. verifying circuits or traverses before doing "trust me" dives in either case.) Incrementally doing more complex and longer dives doesn't require a class - just a brain.

Anyway, that'd be how I'd proceed, assuming you want to collect some cards, and perhaps move towards teaching.

IMHO technical diving is as much about discarding the CESA as an option underwater as it is anything else. CESAs are, of course, very difficult to make when you're 1500' back in a cave with 100' of solid rock over your head. It is thus about understanding where your personal "dragon" lies and how to keep him from rising up and slaying you (panic).

I'd consider that something that's necessary at the pro level too, in that someone you are instructing may well freak out, but you, as the pro, have to be the one who can handle it and keep your cool.