35 replies to this topic

[Marvel]

OK, guys- ot sure if this belongs here or in Dive Training or Trip Reports because this is trip specific. There's a lot of stuff that I'm going to talk about in here that I would like advice on, not criticism. Truthfully, I'm hesitant to talk about this because I don't want to risk having any of you not want to dive with me in the future or think I'm inept & a risk as a buddy because I don't think that I am. Just not as experienced as many of you.

Yesterday, as many of you know, I went down to the keys to dive the Grove. Well, the conditions weren't the greatest- 4-6 ft swells &, at the suggestion of the boat captain, the group I went with put the trip on hold for a couple of hours to wait for the dive reports that are aired on the radio at 10:10 AM (gotta love the keys).

The reports weren't too bad on conditions, with the exception of to seas- once divers were down, they had decent viz & little or no current to contend with so most of us voted to go out & give it a try.

So, we headed out to dive- changed wrecks to the Bentwood. Seas were rough & many started getting a little green around the gills but we all persevered & geared up. I had purchased a new wetsuit on Friday- a 6.5 mil suit that was the proper size for me (I think) & because I knew it was a beast to get into, started getting dressed well before the 10 minute call. I was having so much difficulty getting into the suit that I had to have help with it (from 2 people)- also had to overcome a broken zipper.

So, I get it on finally & it is CHOKING me around the neck, pretty high up, I might add, but I figure that once I get in the water I can get it loosened up enough to be comfortable. Get into my BC & find that I cannot get it zipped up properly because of the additional thickness but get it started & plan to finish in the water- a trick I have used successfully in the past. I dive with a Zeagle Zena, which is a corset style BCD. I varied my gear up routine a little by putting my gloves on prior too zipping up & I know that contributed to my problem. I also added more weight to compensate for the thickness- went from 8 lbs to 12.

So, you guys are starting to get the idea- pre-entry preparation was already signaling problems. MY turn to jump in the water, I go in, signal OK & start zippping up my BC. Now I discover that my reg is not flowing the way I'd like it to & try to adjust it because I'm not getting enough air & I'm really starting to feel as if I'm choking. History digression here- a neighbor had "borrowed" my reg without asking during the winter months & had adjusted the flow much lower. I did not know about it until I was doing a shore dive & could not find it. I had made some adjustments but appearantly not enough for this type of situation even though I was OK on some shore dives.

Now, we signal to go down & guess what??? You got it- not enough weight!!! So, I'm starting to struggle a little to force the decent & the suit is choking me & the air flow is not sufficient.....up I come. By them, my anxiety level had risen so high that I decided to call the dive & signaled to the boat to that effect. Unfortunately, the choking & airflow issues were starting to make me panic. I felt as if I could not breathe with the reg in my mouth & took it out a couple of times. I did warn the boat that I was starting to panic & was able to focus enough on their instructions to keep the panic at bay. They did a great job of talking me in. Later, one of the other guys on the dive told me that pressure to the carotid arteries is known to cause the panic that I felt. Knowing that has made me much more able to deal with this happening to me.

Got in the boat successfully, got the gear off & the suit down around my waist & in about 10 minutes, the feeling of not being able to breathe finally subsided. Got sick over the side & that helped too. Weighted whether or not to attempt the 2nd dive & opted not to. I know that was the right choice but a part of me is still upset that I spent so much money (for me) for nothing but an uncomfortable boat ride.
Now to the questions. I got a couple of suggestions about the suit that were contradictory:

Should I return the suit,which they say I can do, or should I try it again, perhaps on some shore dives so that I can get used to it & find the right weight more exactly?

As I have indicated in previous posts, I do think more training would be beneficial but really cannot afford to take it. Any suggestions on finding someone to dive with who would be willing to work on skills with me? Everyone is always so anxious to just dive that I hesitate to broach the subject.

Last question. Although most of the people I was with were very supportive of my decision, I got the impression that 2 of them were condeming me to each other- one a dive instructor & I don't want to go anywhere near them again. They are regulars on these group dives & I would like to know how to handle this.

Sorry for such a long post. I know that you all will give me valid suggestions, over & above the questions that I asked. I guess part of the reason that I told this tale is also to hear some reassurance that it's OK & maybe to hear that some of you have also had things like this happen to you that you have overcome & learned from.

[chinacat46]

First off I think you were totally right not to dive if you didn't feel comfortable. Diving shouldn't be a peer pressure thing and as Jamie always says any diver can call a dive at any time for any reason. Believe this and live it. I'm not sure what to tell you about the suit but if it's to tight around the neck that could be a problem. As for practising skills I think if you plan that as the dive with somebody and do your weighting and buoyancy as part of the dive you should be able to find somebody who would be interested in helping. It shouldn't be lets dive and BTW while we are doing the wreck I'd like to practise my skills. Make the skills the main reason for the dive. IMHO if an instructor was condeming you for not diving he should be strung up. The last thing I would want would be to have somebody feel like they had to dive and then get all stressed out and panic. You did the right thing and I'd be happy to dive with you since you seem to have your head in the right place plus you are easy on the eyes too.

- Chuck

[Walter]

WOW!

Lots of good information here. Thanks for sharing!

First, let me put your mind at ease. I'll dive with you.

Now let's examine your story with the goal of preventing future problems.

Well, the conditions weren't the greatest- 4-6 ft swells

Unless you are very experienced, this is the first sign to abort. You're there to have fun. Diving in 6 ft seas isn't fun.

at the suggestion of the boat captain, the group I went with put the trip on hold for a couple of hours to wait for the dive reports that are aired on the radio at 10:10 AM (gotta love the keys).

Not a bad idea, but probably a waste of time. 6 ft seas don't subside in 2 hours.

The reports weren't too bad on conditions, with the exception of to seas- once divers were down, they had decent viz & little or no current to contend with so most of us voted to go out & give it a try.

Rough seas make for worse diving conditions than low viz or currents.

So, we headed out to dive- changed wrecks to the Bentwood.

I don't understand this decision at all. The Benwood is a shallow wreck. The Grove is deep. Going to the Grove would get you out of surge, while going to the Benwood would make for tough conditions.

I had purchased a new wetsuit on Friday- a 6.5 mil suit that was the proper size for me (I think) & because I knew it was a beast to get into, started getting dressed well before the 10 minute call.

Planning ahead. Good call.

I was having so much difficulty getting into the suit that I had to have help with it (from 2 people)- also had to overcome a broken zipper.

A new suit with a broken zipper?

So, I get it on finally & it is CHOKING me around the neck, pretty high up, I might add, but I figure that once I get in the water I can get it loosened up enough to be comfortable.

Very dangerous. The carotid sinus is a pressure sensor. It doesn't cause panic as was suggested. It does signal your heart to slow down when it senses pressure. This will keep your blood pressure (in theory) from getting too high. When a hood or wet suit neck is too tight, your heart can slow to the point where you aren't getting oxygen to you brain and you can pass out. This is especially dangerous when you're under water.

Get into my BC & find that I cannot get it zipped up properly because of the additional thickness but get it started & plan to finish in the water- a trick I have used successfully in the past. I dive with a Zeagle Zena, which is a corset style BCD.

You have a BC that zips? I've never heard of this concept, but I'm sure I don't like it.

So, you guys are starting to get the idea- pre-entry preparation was already signaling problems. MY turn to jump in the water, I go in, signal OK & start zippping up my BC. Now I discover that my reg is not flowing the way I'd like it to & try to adjust it because I'm not getting enough air & I'm really starting to feel as if I'm choking. History digression here- a neighbor had "borrowed" my reg without asking during the winter months & had adjusted the flow much lower. I did not know about it until I was doing a shore dive & could not find it. I had made some adjustments but appearantly not enough for this type of situation even though I was OK on some shore dives.

Lots of little things going wrong and one major issue (pressure on your neck). When lots of little things go wrong, abort immediately.

Now, we signal to go down & guess what??? You got it- not enough weight!!! So, I'm starting to struggle a little to force the decent

If you had gotten down, you wouldn't have had a fun dive, you'd be struggling to stay down the entire dive.

& the suit is choking me & the air flow is not sufficient.....up I come. By them, my anxiety level had risen so high that I decided to call the dive

Better late than never, still a good call.

Unfortunately, the choking & airflow issues were starting to make me panic. I felt as if I could not breathe with the reg in my mouth & took it out a couple of times. I did warn the boat that I was starting to panic & was able to focus enough on their instructions to keep the panic at bay. They did a great job of talking me in.

The panic cycle is understood quite well, but I believe (I could be wrong) YMCA is the only agency requiring it to be taught to OW students. You were in the panic cycle and concentrating on the instructions was the only thing that stoped you from panicking.

When we get scared, we start to breathe quickly. Unfortunately, in this situation, we breathe shallowly. When this happens, we don't expell the CO2 from our lungs. This makes us want to breathe even faster with less gas exchange. The snowball effect (like I know anything about snow balls) accellerates the process. Soon, we stop thinking entirely and we are reacting instinctively. We are panicked and unlikely to do anything correctly.

To break the cycle, we need to concentrate on slowing our breathing. Slow, deep breaths are important. If we have our breathing under control, we can think about the correct steps to take to solve our problem.

Later, one of the other guys on the dive told me that pressure to the carotid arteries is known to cause the panic that I felt.

Not exactly, but the pressure on the neck, the suit being way too tight over all, a BC that zips up and is too tight, a poorly adjusted regulator, rough seas, being sea sick and being underweighted all contributed to your general feeling of unease. Except for the pressure on the neck, you would have probably been ok with any one of them. Start adding them up and it's serious trouble.

Got in the boat successfully, got the gear off & the suit down around my waist & in about 10 minutes, the feeling of not being able to breathe finally subsided.

The 10 minute recovery was probably due to exhaustion and seasickness.

Should I return the suit,which they say I can do, or should I try it again, perhaps on some shore dives so that I can get used to it & find the right weight more exactly?

Return the suit. It doesn't fit and is dangerous for you to use.

As I have indicated in previous posts, I do think more training would be beneficial but really cannot afford to take it.

The right training would be helpful. You need confidence building skills.

Any suggestions on finding someone to dive with who would be willing to work on skills with me?

Do you have a pool?

Everyone is always so anxious to just dive that I hesitate to broach the subject.

You're diving with the wrong people.

Last question. Although most of the people I was with were very supportive of my decision, I got the impression that 2 of them were condeming me to each other- one a dive instructor & I don't want to go anywhere near them again. They are regulars on these group dives & I would like to know how to handle this.

What gave you that impression? Did you overhear something specific? I want to make two things very clear, all too often divers are poorly trained. That is rarely the diver's fault. We all start out inexperienced. Anyone who faults you for things beyond your control isn't worth knowing.

Thanks for sharing. I hope I helped.

Walter

[ColoradoPilot]

I won't quote your comments because I am inept. Of course you have to accept the fact that you made a mistake. A new wetsuit and you did not have proper weighting. This could have been done in a pool to at least get close then adjust for saltwater.

Other than that, you did the right thing in ending the dive. You see, I did a similar thing a few years ago but I was overweighted. I was not using my normal 6 mil wetsuit and added a pony bottle. I knew that I might be overweighted but decided to try anyway. Walked in the lake then got to the point where I needed to add air. Lots of air. This was unacceptable and since I had no way to adjust the weights so I did ended the dive. I made a mistake. Good thing it was a shore dive.

Not sure about the wetsuit. With so many things happening against you, it may have been the last straw. You might try it in a pool where you are not under stressed conditions. Personally, I do not like to struggle into a wetsuit. My 6 mil has zippers at the end of the legs and feet. Makes it mucho easier to get into.

Just a bit of advise. Don't worry about what others think if you are doing what is right in your view. I tell my pilot buddies that I am a wussy pilot. What that means is that I and I alone determine what conditions are acceptable to fly. If they go and I don't..so be it. I trust my judgement.

I'll dive with you. Want to go to Cozumel little girl?

PS. If you need a hug, I can help.

Edited by ColoradoPilot, 02 May 2004 - 11:35 AM.

[ColoradoPilot]

One more thing Marvel(ous), if you read fatality reports often there is a chain of events that results in a bad ending. There can be several points where a different decision (such as ending the dive), could have resulting in a better ending. What you did was to break a chain of steps. Any one in and of itself may be monir and accommodated. Too many and it may be bad. That was a wise decision on your part.

I will suggest that at some time you seriously consider taking the Rescue course. IMO, it is among the best and it will instill increased confidence (based on experience, training and judgement).

Finally, don't let this one incident affect your enjoyment of diving. Learn from it and become a better diver.

When I first saw the subject line, I thought the question was "What do women say when CP asks them out for a date?"

Edited by ColoradoPilot, 02 May 2004 - 12:01 PM.

[Coo's Toe]

Marvel,

First and foremost... don't let this experiance color your perspective on diving. We have all had bad days out there, we have all offered our breakfasts to Poseidon at some point. This was a learning experiance, treat it as such and move forward.

Return the suit. You should be able to tell if it fits correctly while you're trying it on in the dive shop. If it's putting that much pressure on your neck, it's too tight.

Boat trips are not a good venue for trial runs of major equipment changes. You paid good money for a trip that was meant to be fun. Testing out new gear is not always a smooth experiance. It can require a lot of getting in and out of the water, and ties up a lot of time. Your boat diving buddies paid a lot of money for a ride to some cool sites, and are just going to want to dive. I'm sure you'd find buddies a lot more willing to work patiently with you on gear changes and skills practice if you were doing a shore dive, or meeting at the pool. On the boat, these otherwise friendly and patient divers are going to cop an attitude because they view you as a hindrance.

I might be mistaken, but I doubt that anyone was truly looking down on you. You had a bad experiance, and might have been feeling guilty for ruining their good time and reading things in that really weren't there. I would think they were actually more concerned for you than you might think. At least I would hope that's the case.

More training is never a bad idea, but even better would be to find a good buddy willing to work with you on some of your comfort level issues. Walter sounds willing, and seems to be close by, take him up on his offer. Do some shore dives where the goal is to work on practicing skills. Almost anyone would be willing to practice basics with you if you discuss that before the dive. Do a dive to practice skills, then follow up with a second dive just to have fun and go see some fish.

Never feel pressured to go through with a dive trip when conditions sound questionable. No one will think less of yoou for backing out if you feel the conditions sound more challenging than you're ready for.

Hope your next dive report is a happier one...

[DandyDon]

I don't understand this decision at all. The Benwood is a shallow wreck. The Grove is deep. Going to the Grove would get you out of surge, while going to the Benwood would make for tough conditions.

Yeah, Kelly's did this to us; saves money on fuel. I used to think a lot of them, before this. And they didn't use the DAN tags that they used to use. I'd like to know who did Marvel this way.

And about the suit:

I used to have a really snug suit that was so much trouble to put on that I'd try to dive without it when I should have had it on - ending up chilled. Finally bought the next larger size.

Your suit should be snug, but you should be able to don it without a stuggel. And don't be fooled by sizes. I'll wear a Large in one, XLg in another, and XXLg in another, although I am not that big!

I agree with checking your gear out in the pool first. Good practice, worth of the trouble, and helps prevents accidents.

[Diverbrian]

To re-iterate the most important point of this. Any person can call a dive at any time.

I just called a day's of diving today as a matter of fact (easy shore dives in a quarry to boot when I stayed overnight to dive). Reasons: The weather was rain mixed between light and heavy from Saturday on. Air temp: about 50 degrees Water temp: about 50 degrees. My buddy and I were camping. I slept in my car and had a better sleep than he did in his flooded tent. I was still cold and was getting numb fingers just taking my tank off my BC to switch tanks. Due to the low air temp, rain and lack of heating, neither of us had warmed much if any from our dives Saturday. I decided that another tank was not going on my BC. I packed my gear and started the 3 1/2 hr. drive home. As my buddy said, we'll both be passing up dives in better conditions than this later in the season. As Walter said, I am diving to enjoy myself. If it is not enjoyable, it is time to scrub the dive.

And Marvel, from your description, I would have called it from the moment that I noticed the ill-fitting wetsuit as well. You may need another bc that fits properly for all of that neoprene from the sounds of things. I know of at least one buddy in your neck of the woods who is always up for a shore dive (I've dove with her). I am sure that there are plenty of others. As for more formal training, it is a good idea. But at the very least, getting some shallow dives in a pool or shallow water with an experienced buddy when you majorly change gear configurations would be well advised. I am also a firm believer that a diver should try to get at least a rescue class (name depends on the agency).

As one of the other posts indicated, the first place to try brand new equipment and configurations isn't on the boat. That is why I dive quarries so much. Between my gear changes and buddies that wish to get used to theirs, I collect many dives in quarries to shake down gear.

I, for one, won't criticize anyone for calling a dive. If anything, I am far more prone to criticize someone for not calling a dive when they are obviously having problems. That tends to lead to rescues and those are no fun for anyone.

Good call on recognizing a problem and scrubbing the dive.

[bann]

Marvel: I'll gladly dive with you anytime. Skills can be learned, the right attitude for diving is much harder to come by. I'd take a buddy any day that knows when to make the "no go" call over someone "more experienced" with the wrong attitude. I would ditto pretty much everything Walter said: The wetsuit should go back, it is indeed dangerous for it to be that constrictive. 1/4 in. wetsuits usually need to be 2-3sizes up from what size you wear. I have fitted 100's of divers in wetsuits and weights so I have a little experience and would be glad to offer any suggestions or answer any questions you might have. Your regulator may or may not need adjustment, but it is very, very common for people to feel that the reg isn't working if they are over-exerting (struggling to get down/rough seas) breathing shallow/feeling anxious or panicked, this is over-breathing a regulator and it happens to just about everyone at some point. You made the right call and if your ever down my way or if I come yours we'll dive together.

[zendiver]

Marvel,

This is just as good a place as any to post this. Thanks for sharing this indepth information and I am sure that you have learned some valuable lessons from the experience that you have had. Hopefully the answers that you receive are not criticism but constructive advice. If I sound like I am criticizing you, then please accept my apologies in advance, it was not my intentions. As for the risk of having any of us not wanting to dive with you in the future or think that you are ineptly a risk as a dive buddy, I honestly don’t feel that you will have that problem here.

This post warrants some good decisions and not so good decisions that you made, IMHO. First of all, I agree that you should have not gone diving in a new 6.5mm suit without first testing your buoyancy/weights, especially in the conditions that you described. Second, with the experiences that you were experiencing with the way the suit felt when you put it on, I would have aborted the dive right then, even though I have been in this position once before myself, and elected to make the dive anyway. I pretty much had to as it was a working dive, (that is a story of its own and maybe I will start my own thread about it). The tightness around the neck IS NOT a good feeling to feel before you ever get into the water, then the broken zipper, then NOT being able to zip up your BC, the one that you have dove with for quite some time. That should have put up a RED flag and should have not even gotten into the water.

Take the wetsuit back and exchange it for one that fits properly, and then test it in a pool somewhere before taking it out into the blue where the conditions are far worse than a pool or even some of the springs. ALWAYS, and I repeat, ALWAYS test out new equipment as well as serviced equipment before going on a trip with them. I can say this because of experience.

I am glad that you finally did abandon the dive and got back on the boat. It is not something that feels good to do especially seeing as how you paid quite a bit of money for your trip. It does show that you are a responsible diver and know when you have had enough. It could have gotten worse at depth: the wetsuit tighten a bit more, the regulator got worse because of the pressure, or your panic state from all of the above could have turned disastrous. Ultimately, you made the right decision.

I do have a question though, were you buddied up with someone and if so, why didn’t your buddy act accordingly. If you would have been my buddy in this situation, I would have suggested sitting out the dive.

With all of this being said, “I would/will dive with you anytime!� Whether it be fun diving or practice your skills diving. I have learned in the years of diving and certainly the conditions in which I do most of my diving, that if you are uncertain or having problems above the water, they will only get worse under water. I'm proud of you for finally realizing that a possible serious problem could occur and made the decision to abort the dive. I'm with Brian on never criticizing someone for knowing when to call a dive. It's those that don't that make my job a lot harder and sometimes fatal.

Hope this helps at least a little bit.

-ZD

[scuba_jenny]

Couple comments
I was one of the divers on the boat. To the best of my knowledge, the SG was never a planned destination, although it might of been talked about. Yes, it was rough. We waited for the trip report to get first hand knowledge of the conditions out there before deciding anything. Once we heard the report, each one individually decided whether to make the trip or not. Some chose not to dive and went on their merry way. The rest of us called the captain. He agreed to take us out, since the trip reports were better than expected.

Marvel you did the right thing aborting the dive, and I commend you for it. Tough loss $$ wise, but you are living and breathing as a result of your decision.
I agree with others to return the suit. If you don't you will be cussing at it during every dive... I know, I've had my share of ill fitting equipment, including mens wetsuits...aarrggghhh! And yes, it had a broken zipper.

Also, anytime you want to do some skills, I know a pool at a friends house we can use....Its a pleasure diving with you, and look forward to better conditions so we can dive again.

[Diverbrian]

Couple comments
I was one of the divers on the boat. To the best of my knowledge, the SG was never a planned destination, although it might of been talked about. Yes, it was rough. We waited for the trip report to get first hand knowledge of the conditions out there before deciding anything. Once we heard the report, each one individually decided whether to make the trip or not. Some chose not to dive and went on their merry way. The rest of us called the captain. He agreed to take us out, since the trip reports were better than expected.

Marvel you did the right thing aborting the dive, and I commend you for it. Tough loss $$ wise, but you are living and breathing as a result of your decision.
I agree with others to return the suit. If you don't you will be cussing at it during every dive... I know, I've had my share of ill fitting equipment, including mens wetsuits...aarrggghhh! And yes, it had a broken zipper.

Also, anytime you want to do some skills, I know a pool at a friends house we can use....Its a pleasure diving with you, and look forward to better conditions so we can dive again.

Thanks for your post Jenny. I was going to post something on the information that I had, but I didn't want to say anything second hand. Thanks for helping to keep the record straight on this trip!

[jextract]

There's nothing I can add that hasn't been covered by people more qualified and experienced than I. HOWEVER, you all ain't getting off that easy.

First off, I'd like to give a "way to go, girl!" to Marvel for having the courage to post a problem she had here, with all the gory detail, not knowing what the response would be and potentially putting herself up to being ridiculed.

Second, I'd like to really commend everyone who responded for doing so in a constructive and caring way. You guys are OK by me! Could you imagine if she'd have posted this on ScubaBoard? There would be a smoldering pile of ash where our beloved Marvel used to be.

So.... Marvel, and the rest of yous guys, I'll be happy and proud to dive with you any time any where. And you STILL can call any dive without me givin' you any grief.

OK, I'm off my soapbox.

Jamie

[Walter]

Hi Jenny,

It's good to see you here. I hope you'll post an intro so everyone can get to know you.

Walter

[Marvel]

OK, guys- thank you all so much! I actually made this post & left the house to watch the Ait & Sea show, putting this aside for the nonce. I knew I'd get good feedback from you all & if my post helps even one other diver to call a dive under such conditions then I've done my part to further safe diving.
The suit's going back- I was vacillating all day about that & your posts confirmed my gut reaction. The beach is out my back door- diving will continue for sure!! I'll be taking Jenny up on her offer (about time you came over here girl!) Funny, I could have sworn the planned destination was the Grove?!?! Another buddy from the trip came over for the show & has expressed a willingness to do some skills work as well- he agrees that it is highly beneficial for all divers too.
I do want to stress that the observations that I made about the 2 people on the trip were ONLY about those 2- not any of the others that I went with & again, it was my impression- I;ve been known to be wrong in the past & may have been this time.
So, again, thank you all so much. I've taken your words and attitude to heart.