28 replies to this topic

[AliKat]

I was asked in a PM if I would really pay $318 more for a trip just because it was an SD trip. I've see a lot of members post in various places that "value" was one of their top priorities when deciding on dive trips. Well, seems to me that that one word may have many different meanings to all of us.

The short answer to the question I was asked, is, in many cases, yes. I would spend more to be on an SD trip. The reason is, in many cases, I would still feel I was getting the best "value" even though I was paying more.

The thing I tend to come up the most short on at this point in my life is time (this question was PM'd to me a week ago, and I just now have the time to sit down and answer it). So, my time is worth a lot to me. To find that same trip at $318 dollars less, I would have to spend MY time researching. Then once I found the $318 savings, I would have to spend more time reading all the fine print of BOTH trips to make sure what appeared to be a savings really was. Then I'd have to spend the time booking it. To put a monitary value on this, my employeer tells me my time is worth about $48/hour to them. I'm worth at LEAST that much to myself, so I"ll go with that. Say it takes 4 hours to do all the research and book the trip. I'm already down to a $126 difference in trips. I am very happy to pay someone $192 to have that 4 hours to do local diving here, or go running, or read, or even just sleep! But say, I go for that less expensive trip. Instead of $1300, I get the same trip for $1000; BUT, I have no one to travel with, and no one on the other end of the trip that cares about this. I'm a pretty shy person, so the chance for me getting to know complete strangers and hanging out with them is pretty slim. Plus, more than likely everyone is paired up. Not to mention, that especially when you start traveling outside the US, I don't feel comfortable traveling alone. Being able to travel with a group that has similar issues to me (all single, wanting to take dive trips, not wanting to travel alone) is worth every penny of that $318 as that $1000 would have NO value to me, mostly because I probably wouldn't go, and if I did, would not have a very good time. To me, it would be a terrible value to spend $1000 then not enjoby it.

Now, I realize to many, time is not as important as it is to me. I would imagine that the value one places on time is going to be directly proportional to the amount of disposable income one has. And I am aware that many have no problems traveling alone and meeting people and enjoying the trip for the diving with or without friends. I would expect these people to define value much differently than I do.

I also think there are probably a lot of reasons one would/could find a trip that SD has offered for less $$. I don't know anything about the travel industry, but I think pricing can change from minute to minute, and there are always WEB only offers that INDIVIDUALS can take advantage of. Chances are the cheaper price AFTER SD has posted their priced could be due to the hotel not booking as expected (couldn't you also find a higher price if the opposite were true?) Because overall, SD gives me the best value for $ spent, I think I would choose to support them in most cases with my travel just to help make sure they are able to stay around for the next time

Soooo...this is my long winded answer to how I define value. Anyone else??

Edited by AliKat, 30 July 2005 - 06:53 PM.

[annasea]

I agree wholeheartedly with what you've stated, AliKat.

In a nutshell, it seems somewhat similar to the argument of *quality* vs. *quantity*.

Although I've yet to go on an SD trip (I'm still in swimming lessons, but progressing nicely, I might add! ), the sense I get of SD trips from what I've read is that most of the details regarding accommodations, meals, diving , etc. are worked out for you in advance. As you stated, this definitely is a plus! Also, other participants may have already been to that particular trip's destination and can offer advice based on their own experiences. A travel agent may not have first hand experience of your particular destination, and booking online offers you even less support.

As well, you're with a group of people you've either corresponded directly with via posts or PMs, or you've at least read some of their posts so you have a sense of who they are. I, too, am *shy* and rarely enjoy being in a group setting, but with an SD trip, I would at least have some familiarity with the other participants. Also, these people would be more likely to respect my need for going off on my own occasionally and not think me a *snob* or *anti-social* because they've gotten a sense of me and my *shyness* since it's been discussed on the board or in PMs.

As for the $318, despite what both you and I have already mentioned, I think it's all relative. If one trip is only $600 to start with, and the SD trip would cost $318 more, bringing the total SD trip cost to $918, then it might need a bit of consideration. (But where can you find a trip for $600 anyway?! LOL!!!) OTOH, if a non-SD trip is $2000, what's an extra $318 to spend when chances are you know you'll have a better time on the SD trip? Pretty negligible in my opinion.

[drdiver]

I have and will always support Kamala's endeavors. She is not perfect, but she try so hard to make the trip fun for everyone. Besides, who wants to hang out with perfection. It's the imperfection in us that made us human and more approachable.

I have been asked why I volunteer to help her out. One person even said I was "stupid" for doing so and that comment left me speechless. Yet, please know that what I do, I do willingly without any expectations or rewards. As long as I have the time, I will continue to take these trips and help out in anyway I can.

It's an interesting contradiction or dichotomy (whichever you prefer). I appreciate and believe your experiences and respect the positive influences you've had. In my case, responses to requests were glacial or non existent. Perhaps the response is better for women, I don't know. I know in my case I had to resort to methods that I really don't approve of to get a response and action. And in all fairness, I finally did get satisfaction. (although I still have some issues with some moderators--not at all objective IMHO). But I"m glad you are happy. I wish it had been true for me. But in all honesty it wasn't. So I won't go on a trip. Maybe someday, I think it could be fun, but not now.

[Narwhal]

I am an engineer by profession and am a Certified Quality Engineer by ASQ (American Society for Quality. Early in my training I was taught that quality meant "customer satisfaction" or "conformance to specifications". The customer defines the specifications and the supplier must meet them if the product or service furnished is to be defined as a "quality" product or service. Cost may or may not be one of those specifications. If the customer wants other criteria to be met, then a lower cost product that does not meet those criteria is not a quality offering. One of the first questions posed was, "Which is a higher quality product: a brand new zero mileage Rolls Royce Silver shadow or a 1963 Buick with a rebuilt engine?" The answer, obviously, is that there is not enough information in the question to give an answer. The 1963 Buick might very well be a higher quality product depending on what the customer wanted and how the customer wrote the specifications for the product desired.

This is especially true of dive trips. The majority of the feedback I have seen on Kamala's dive trips has been overwhelmingly positive. This is best demonstrated by the number of repeat bookings she has for future dive trips. She is satisfying the specifications of a majority of her customers. There are a few customers whose specifications were not met and they are, unfortunately, vocal in their dissatisfaction. That is their right. But it does not mean (and they are fools if they think they can claim) that a particular trip was not a quality dive trip. All that they can say (legitimately) is that it did not meet their specifications. The few extant cases of negative feedback are useful to Kamala only in determining if specifications need to be changed on future dive trips in order to satisfy a different customer base. I have been a certified diver for forty-three years, am an instructor for five certifying agencies, have worked for a number of different dive shops and taught college and professional level courses, have run trips myself and seen many examples of (what I considered) good and less than good--they did not meet my specifications---operations. Kamala does a pretty good job of delivering what she says she will deliver. I will certainly dive with her again--hopefully many times---in the future.

There is always room for improvement in designing trips for a particular audience. Kamala is always working on this. With good and knowledgeable divers and helpers like Alikat, Annasea and Sea Urchin, I'm sure that the future will hold even better trips than those we have already experienced. She is lucky to have "quality" people like you three working with her. Thanks from all of us.

Jim

[annasea]

If I can chime in here again . . .

Although there have only been 4 responses so far to AliKat's question, there seems to be a common thread I'd like to point out ... people!

I'm a pretty shy person, so the chance for me getting to know complete strangers and hanging out with them is pretty slim. Plus, more than likely everyone is paired up. Being able to travel with a group that has similar issues to me (all single, wanting to take dive trips, not wanting to travel alone) is worth every penny of that $318

you're with a group of people you've either corresponded directly with via posts or PMs, or you've at least read some of their posts so you have a sense of who they are. I, too, am *shy* and rarely enjoy being in a group setting, but with an SD trip, I would at least have some familiarity with the other participants.

It's the people and the connection we made on Kamala's trips that made it special. An opportunity to meet and interact with the men and women of SD is what make these trips priceless.

So it seems this is what makes SD diving trips so unique -- the people involved!

(For example, I received the most amazing PM awhile back regarding an upcoming SD trip. I won't go into the details, but I am certain I would never, ever in a million years have received such an invite/offer on any other diving site. There are truly remarkable people here on SD! )

Obviously, everyone who goes on an SD trip wants great diving, accommodations, meals, etc., but I get the sense from most of the trip reports that I've read that people are an equally important factor too. For those that aren't interested in socialising with or befriending other participants, maybe an SD trip isn't for them and they should book elsewhere. But, once again, I think a huge part of SD's appeal is the people involved! After all, isn't this the purpose of SD? To connect divers with other divers?

On a different topic, Narhwal also made an extremely good point that I feel is worth highlighting . . .

She is satisfying the specifications of a majority of her customers. There are a few customers whose specifications were not met and they are, unfortunately, vocal in their dissatisfaction. That is their right. But it does not mean (and they are fools if they think they can claim) that a particular trip was not a quality dive trip. All that they can say (legitimately) is that it did not meet their specifications. The few extant cases of negative feedback are useful to Kamala only in determining if specifications need to be changed on future dive trips in order to satisfy a different customer base.

[Walter]

Jim,

Good points, but I think you contradicted yourself at one point.

The customer defines the specifications and the supplier must meet them if the product or service furnished is to be defined as a "quality" product or service..............There are a few customers whose specifications were not met and they are, unfortunately, vocal in their dissatisfaction. That is their right. But it does not mean (and they are fools if they think they can claim) that a particular trip was not a quality dive trip.

They can't say it wasn't a quality trip for you or me who had a grand time, but they can say it wasn't a quality trip for them (according to your definition).

[Narwhal]

They can't say it wasn't a quality trip for you or me who had a grand time, but they can say it wasn't a quality trip for them (according to your definition).

Thanks Walter--That is exactly the message I was trying to convey. Sorry if I was unclear.

Jim

[chinacat46]

Okay I think I should chime in here since I'm the one who started this whole thing. First off I want to state that in general Kamala trys to get the best deal and pass along a fair price to the members. She is new at this and doesn't have the clout that some of the consolidators do and thus can't always get the best deal. In only two cases have I seen an SD trip that I thought weren't good deals. I do a lot of traveling and am familar with a number of sites which offer great deals. When I see trips on SD that I'm interested in I'll go to these sites and see what kinda deals they offer for the same hotel/dive package. In the two cases I'm refering to one was overpriced by $150 and the other was overpriced by $318. Although in the latter case Kamala was offering a dinner included in the extra $318. Now I know some of you are SD lovers and bleed the SD blue and think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I like SD and enjoyed the one trip I attended and will probably attend others in the future(provided I feel it's a good value to me). In the case of the extra $318 Kamala got a bad deal. She is new at this and as time progresses she will become better at getting the good deals. To me staying at hotel A and diving with operator B and paying $318 more because I'm going with SD is not a good value. For those of you who think it is I'm sure Kamala would happily accept an extra $318 for every trip you book. Will you pay that cuz you are going with SD? I think not. Kamala is running a business and deserves to make a profit but $318 per person per trip is not a good value. However, in this case she isn't pocketing that much. How much she is pocketing is her business and not mine. If you book a trip with your local LDS it is normally a bit higher then if you booked it yourself. After all they are in business to make money as well. Somebody has to pay for the escort who goes along on the trip. In the case of SD that escort is Kamala. She deserves to go for free although she may be diving she is doing a lot of work before the trip and in many cases during the trip to make sure things run smoothly. One thing I think SD could improve on with regards to trips which most of the consolidators do is to offer a complete package. When I book with one of the consolidators they will usually find me the best airfare and arrange any hotel stays I need if different from the main the package. For instance when I went on the liveaboard with SD. I had to arrange air to/from and hotel before the liveaboard. As for me I will continue to check prices out for SD trips and will decide myself if I think it's a good value or not. Caveat Emptor!

[WreckWench]

This is an interesting thread that has raised some great questions, observations and even some common misperceptions.

First, I like to thank everyone who has supported SingleDivers.com by joining us on one of our wonderful group trips! Second, I'd like to thank everyone who is considering joining us or will be joining us either on a repeat trip or their first SingleDivers.com adventure!!!

I am overwhelmed that our members would consider a $300 markup on the price of a trip to be reasonable or of value for the services we work so hard to deliver and to continually improve upon. I only wish that it were true that we really did get a $300 markup on our trips; we'd be ready for an IPO if that were the case!

However one of our members ChinaCat found a very large wholesaler that was offering basically the same package that SD is offering to Grenada sans a very nice appreciation and departure dinner at a private beach club for about $300 less than our price. Since I was working with the resort/dive operator directly, I apparently did not get as good of a deal as ‘the big guys’. After asking Chuck where he found his pricing, I have now initiated communications with this very large wholesaler and hope to tap into their expertise and pricing discounts for future trips.

Chuck furthermore said in his posts that he had found only one trip that was $300 more than what he could get it for and one trip that was about $100 more than what he could get it for directly, but that the rest were reasonably priced or basically the same as what he could find them himself. He even joined us on our Saba trip in March and his only complaint was that we could not offer him full service travel arrangements such as air and hotel accommodations, but rather left that to our members to handle themselves. (We do hope to offer full service travel arrangements for our members very soon but we are able to offer some bulk air now and I am happy to check that for you on any of our trips!)

A couple of observations…

1. The trips that Chuck has found would most likely be for individual travel and not group travel.

2. If the pricing was in fact for a group trip with a group leader, Chuck would face the same dilemma that many of us face and that is not knowing anyone on the trip, not be assured of a same sex roommate, not being assured of a roommate at all and having to pay the expensive single supplements, getting stuck with someone for a roommate and a dive buddy (unless we brought our own) and of course usually being the 3rd or 5th wheel in a group of usually all couples.

3. If price is your only real issue and you are an adventuresome person that doesn’t mind traveling alone and/or taking the luck of the draw regarding your roommates and dive buddies, then SD will not always be your first choice for dive travel.

4. However if you want to travel as economically as possible yet still have a trip leader to not only help you set up your vacation but to also help you with it while on vacation…and you want to travel with OTHER single and married but buddyless divers…many of whom have become your friends via our online community then SingleDivers.com should be your choice for group dive travel.

Now back to that ‘overpricing’ issue.

Please if you find trips that are exactly the same as ours for significantly less…please let me know. That way I can work to improve pricing for our future trips. I am amazed every time I hear that we are priced the same or better than what our members can find for the same trip going by themselves with out all the fun and benefits that a SD trips offers. It is more normal for our members to say that they can do it for about $50-$100 less. Either way I'm proud of what we've accomplished since I’m doing things you would not expect for a young organization our size and that is offering 12-15 major dive trips a year and NOT CANCELLING ANY OF THEM REGARDLESS OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON THEM!

Yes you read that right…I have made a personal commitment to NEVER cancel a trip once its been booked regardless of how many people are on it. This alone should be a huge value for every member!

Unfortunately dive shops and other entities will cancel your vacation if they can’t fill the trip or they can't pay their trip leader to run it. (I can understand their point…I still haven’t found any trip leaders other than myself willing to run a trip and pay their own way while they are at it…and in some cases other people’s way as well if all the spots are not filled.)

However, do keep in mind that if I eat too many spots…and I run too many trips that I not only pay my entire way on and work for the privilege of doing so, our number of trips will go down, not up. Or we won’t offer group trips, merely self-led small group and individual travel opportunities making us merely a travel agency and no different than what everybody else is offering.

So while we are still small and young (we are only 16 months old), you may from time to time find our trips priced slightly higher than what you can find them traveling yourself. Or occasionally you may find one priced $300 more…but most of the time you’ll find them the same or better priced than what you could find on your own. Plus you get to travel with some REALLY awesome people and someone who has done or will do the lions share of the work for you to make your vacation enjoyable!

So if price is your only criteria…then we will not always be your first choice in travel. But if diving with other fun loving, single and buddyless divers on a variety of trips ranging from reef to wrecks all over the world for ALL skill levels that are open to all members* is important to you in addition to a great price…then SingleDivers.com is your home for dive travel!

Again I want to thank you all for your support and for opening up a valuable discussion in our community. Kamala

*All SingleDivers.com group led trips are turnkey diving vacations that are open to all levels of our membership. We do not offer ‘selected members only trips’ however we do occasionally have trips that require minimum skill levels which are clearly posted in the trip description.

[chinacat46]

Yes you read that right…I have made a personal commitment to NEVER cancel a trip once its been booked regardless of how many people are on it. This alone should be a huge value for every member!

I would like to just add that is an excellent value you won't get at your LDS. I've booked trips with them and had them canceled because they couldn't get a minimum number of people to sign up.

[WreckWench]

Yes you read that right…I have made a personal commitment to NEVER cancel a trip once its been booked regardless of how many people are on it. This alone should be a huge value for every member!

I would like to just add that is an excellent value you won't get at your LDS. I've booked trips with them and had them canceled because they couldn't get a minimum number of people to sign up.

Now off to try and fill the last spots on our NC trip this coming weekend so I'm not uh...paying my way and several others again! Boy the fun never ends does it???

[peterbj7]

..... would face the same dilemma that many of us face ..... not be assured of a same sex roommate

I'd pay for the opposite!

[AliKat]

Will you pay that cuz you are going with SD? I think not.

Chuck,

You cannot speak for anyone BUT yourself. If you had said "Will I pay...instead if will YOU pay...that would be one thing. But, bottom line you DO NOT think for me. So, your quote here is incorrect. You cann't answer that question for me.

What I was trying to get at with this post was that we all have a different idea of value. I find it interesting that you say as soon as you see an SD trip you are interested in you go to other sites to compare, but at the same one of your complaints is that you had to book your own air travel for SD trips. So, again, we value our time differently. Neither one of us is right or wrong. ITS ALL IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!! All I am asking is that you please not make fun of me (or anyone else) with comments like "Now, I know some of you are SD lovers and bleed SD blue..." There is something to be said for loyaty, but one reason I am loyal to SD is that for my life style, and preferences, they give ME the best value. Becuase you differ with that, does not make me wrong for me. Comments like the one I just quoted are just not necessary, and are out of line. I don't deserve to be harassed because I see value differently than you do. Its hurtful, and thats not what this site is about.

For the one trip I have gone on, SD charged exactly the same as what was advertised on the boats WEB page. So, this means, unless the company comp'ed her for bringing the group, Kamala was paying her own way. And more than likely she paid her own airfare. For my next planned trip, I have no idea if I could go cheaper or not. I don't care to spend my time researching to find out. But, I do know I am paying an extra $600 in airfare to get to LAX. I'm sure it would be cheaper to get to Fiji from Hawaii. However, without the group, the single supplement is $600, plus, again, I would be traveling alone, which I don't want to do.

If anyone is aware of ways to get less expensive trips than SD is offering, I think the best thing for that person to do is PM one of the trip mods with the info. Seems to me that would be much better than posting on the board you have found "better values". After all, how many businesses would allow a customer to post on their own WEB site info on the competition??

And a point about roommates. Kamala does her best to do same sex roommates, however, sometimes genders on trips just don't work out. On the Saba trip, my roommate was a guy. I could NEVER imagine allowing some unknown, unseen consolidator room me with anyone, and there is no way I would accept rooming under these circumstances with a male I had never met before.

[Bubble2Bubble]

I've been on several SD trips and I have booked my own dive trips as well.

to me you cant compare the two. Apples and Oranges I say.

my time is money like Alikat has stated. I was not raised a fool and I do
spend alittle time checking things out to see if I am getting a fare deal with WW.
it dosnt take long to see that she is providing a quailty trip that has more aminities and activities than I can list.

Just look at this format she has to let you post your opionions on... SD.com
I have a trip in Sept with SD and I am already having fun posting and laughing with people I have not even meet yet! and we are planning on bringing toys to children that live there.

SD.com supercedes anything I could ever come up with myself.

B2B

Edited by Bubble2Bubble, 02 August 2005 - 03:43 PM.