57 replies to this topic

[PerroneFord]

I've come to a realization I think. There seem to be a large proprtion of divers who GREATLY enjoy marine life, coral reefs, and puttering about in a zen like state in the shallows. Then there exists the dark side. Those divers who venture deeper and into dark places. Divers who venture into overhead environments, push past NDL limits, all for the chance to glimpse at things most divers never see.

As a boy, I watched many shows on diving and underwater discovery. Ships have always interested me. And for whatever reason, I've always been fascinated by shipwrecks. I knew by the time I was a teenager that I wanted to go see some of these shipwrecks for myself. The desire burned like a small fire in me until I eventually mustered the courage to learn to dive. When I got certified, I had no idea the path to realize my childhood dream. As I've been around diving more, I've learned what skills are necessary, and am setting about to attain those skills.

Earlier this evening, I emailed WreckWench to find out more about her experience and her drive to dive on wrecks. This is a specialty much like cave, or underwater archeology. It's not for everyone, and many will not understand the fascination of wanting to spend hours or days swimming around a big hunk of steel when there are glorious reefs to explore. It's dark down there, often cold, and if you penetrate the wrecks, quite dangerous.

So, what I would like to do here, is to open the floor to those who are drawn to this specialty. What put the desire in you to dive on wrecks. Do you penetrate them? How long have you been diving wrecks? What are your future plans, and what ships would you like to visit? What was your certification path to get where you are now (especially if you are penetrating wrecks) and what advice would you give to someone just starting on that path.

From this, I hope to find some kindred spirits. I hope to hear some stories of likeminded people who share the fascinatoin that I have with these magnificent vessels who've met their fate on the bottom. I'd like to hear ideas for training. I'd like to hear what you'd have done differently given the chance. And if you've done it and given it up, lets hear why.

Thanks very much for your patience, and hopefully WreckWench will speak up first, or soon!

Thanks,

-P

[Diverbrian]

Perrone,

I happen to be a history buff. In the area that I live in, the wrecks are time capsules. This is due to the cold, fresh water that acts to preserve them. The deeper that one goes, the more preserved that they tend to be.

This means that I have gravitated towards wooden schooners and wooden steamers that are over 100 years old. As I have wanted to see more, I have taken to diving deeper than most. This frequently means 150 ft. to 200 ft. As this generally leads to an overhead environment even without shipwreck penetration due to the decompression obligation, I am diving a fair amount of tri-mix and have taken to learning some of the mysteries of how to survive in an overhead environment.

The reward: I have been on shipwrecks where one can read the capstan cover reading "Buffalo, NY 1889" and another where one can look into the crew's quarters as they were in the late 1800's. I have seen the decks of one of the first wooden steamers on the Great Lakes to go down with passengers in what historians widely consider one of the largest death tolls on Lake Huron. I have seen ships where one of the life boats actually went inside of the holds when the ship landed in 175 ft. of water while another lies off to the side of the wreck. I have peeled through one wreck's cargo of paper that still looks as though one could still write on it.

For a person who loves history, this is better than going to a museum . You just have to have the skills to go down and safely look at these things. I still have much to learn, but those wrecks will be there as I continue to do so. Indeed, most days I find out as much about myself as the life of the crew when I go to dive them. So, it is a journey of self discovery as much as it is about history. And these things are all in my figurative backyard.

Edited by Diverbrian, 19 September 2005 - 12:17 AM.

[PerroneFord]

Thank you for sharing that. This is the kind of information I had hoped to get. I too am interested in history. In fact, one of the dives I hope to do next year is on a historical slave ship in SE Florida. The depth is easily in recreational depths but the dive has some significance to me.

I hope to see a number of the major and minor wrecks in my state and along the gulf, then work my way up the coast. In a couple of years, when I am diving dry, I hope to hit the Great Lakes, and eventually Scapa Flow, and some other famous areas.

DiverBrian, interesting that you mentioned 150-200ft as deep. We know it's not REALLY deep until your trimix becomes only a 2 gas mix again! Of course, at $75-100 a tank, not many venture there!

I guess when it's necessary to mix hypoxic, you're pretty deep too...

[Diverbrian]

Thank you for sharing that.  This is the kind of information I had hoped to get.  I too am interested in history.  In fact, one of the dives I hope to do next year is on a historical slave ship in SE Florida.  The depth is easily in recreational depths but the dive has some significance to me.

I hope to see a number of the major and minor wrecks in my state and along the gulf, then work my way up the coast.  In a couple of years, when I am diving dry, I hope to hit the Great Lakes, and eventually Scapa Flow, and some other famous areas.

DiverBrian, interesting that you mentioned 150-200ft as deep.  We know it's not REALLY deep until your trimix becomes only a 2 gas mix again!    Of course, at $75-100 a tank, not many venture there!

I guess when it's necessary to mix hypoxic, you're pretty deep too...

I could make up any mix that I want. I mix my own gas.

As I mentioned in a training thread here, wrecks like the Carl D. Bradley in Lake Michigan get to 330 ft. deep. I probably won't head for those in my lifetime as you get to a point where the deco makes the dive too much of a PITA to do. Three hours or so in the water to get twenty minutes of bottom time is NOT my idea of the dive being worth it.

Deep is a relative term. You get into the mixes that you refer to (Heliox) and High Pressure Nervous Syndrome starts to become an issue. That is getting into some pretty advanced stuff and typically done by commercial/ military divers. That is another realm that I really don't have the time to play in.

For now, the limit of my training is about 200 ft. and that is plenty. I have very few dive buddies up here that will do even that. And for 200 ft., my mixes are slightly hypoxic, but nothing requiring a travel gas.

If you ever get around to coming up here, let me know. I would love to show you some of our ship wrecks.

As for training, I know from reading your posts that you tend towards GUE training, so that path will get you well on your way. I don't gravitate that way, but I know that it is great training that will serve you well so long as you buy into the GUE way of doing things.

Edited by Diverbrian, 19 September 2005 - 01:54 AM.

[PerroneFord]

Make up any gas you want... hmmmm, maybe I'll come up there sooner rather than later! LOL. Of course mixing your own doesn't make it free. But I'm sure it takes some of the cost factor away.

I agree that 200ft is probably deep enough. You'll get to see nearly everything without the need for LOTS of deco, and in the ocean, this isn't really a great idea anyway. At least as I understand it.

In terms of training, I do tend to GUE for some specific reasons. I got introduced to the WKPP divers long before GUE was formed. And if you think there is fervor now, it was BRUTAL back then. You couldn't MENTION anything about them in the dive shops near here without getting an earful. However, I think they produce good divers and I think their stuff is sound and tested. And they are local. I listen to people having to travel country-wide to get good tech training, and GUE is about 1.5 hours from me. It's a nice resource.

Well, when I finish Tech2 and Cave1, I'll be sure to come visit some wrecks with you. By that time, I'll be diving dry and blending gas. And hopefully, won't be a trainwreck in the water like I am now! It is VERY cool to know there are divers such as yourself here. I hope you won't mind if I ping you from time to time regarding diving wrecks. I have so many questions I'd like to get answered.

-P

[ScubaDadMiami]

I wreck dive for a couple of reasons. The most important is that the reefs down here are kind of marginal. When I am in the Bahamas, the reefs and walls are so spectacular that I don't miss the wrecks all that much.

On the other hand, wrecks are like discovery and exploration especially when they are real ship wrecks (as compared to artificial reefs). I love seeing what's around the next corner!

As far as depth goes, when you are wreck diving, you have to go to where the wrecks are. If they are deep, you have to go deep.

If you want to get into penetration, do not think that taking an introduction to wreck diving course will allow anyone to carry out a serious technical penetration dive. Get proper training, and gradually work up your real world experience. Have the proper equipment, and know how to use it.

[PerroneFord]

If you want to get into penetration, do not think that taking an introduction to wreck diving course will allow anyone to carry out a serious technical penetration dive. Get proper training, and gradually work up your real world experience. Have the proper equipment, and know how to use it.

Truer words were never spoken. I cringe when I hear others talk about doing this with their AOW or after they take a cavern class. I'll have *PLENTY* of swim-bys to keep my busy until I finish my cave and tech diver courses, and even then, I'll probably spend a year penetrating in Nitrox depths.

GUE used to teach a wreck pen. course, but no longer do. I may ask for a special course from one of the tech instructors. I think TDI also does a wreck course, and perhaps there is one in NAUI, but I can't recall.

I'd highly recommend people get all the advanced training they can if they want to be in overheads. AOW isn't gonna cut it. I also think too many people rush the timeline. I see this as a 4-5 year process before I am comfortable penetrating, though I will do some shallow penetrations after finishing cave 1 and tech 1. Nothing below 70ft though.

You can read all you want, but *DOING* is where you really learn. Dang, I can't wait to get started. And where is wreckwench, and why hasn't she responded.

Oh, and neither of you guys gave any indication of your training or agencies. I'd be quite curious to know how you went about learning to do this well.

Thanks,

-P

[Diverbrian]

My training to date is not enough to where I am comfortable with wreck penetration myself. I need a little more time underwater for that.

My primary training agency would be IANTD. But, there is a TDI instructor out of the Brockville, ONT area that I will likely be using for any further training in wreck penetration and tri-mix as my current instructor teaches only to normoxic tri-mix level and we are limited on the instructors that teach wreck penetration up here.

It will be a few years before I go much farther depthwise or take a penetration course in any case. Cave is not happening. I have looked at my options and a week's boot camp (which is the most practical method for me as Florida is not my typical diving destination) is not going to happen. Neither do I feel comfortable going to Florida year after year to work on a cave course to dive in an area (Michigan) that really has no caves to dive. Wreck penetration is a slightly different animal than caves and the people that have had their guidelines cut up by rusted metal in a wreck would be more aware of that than I am.

My background on diving wrecks is that I took it up shortly after I started diving as it is basically the only kind of diving available in the Great Lakes. I quickly fell in love with it and took Advanced Nitrox to expand my horizons a bit (and I didn't like the SSI deep class as taught by our shop at the time). I redid most of my gear as a result of that class and JUST DOVE for a year. I consider that JUST DIVE very important as dives outside courses are where I become more comfortable with myself. I know too many divers up here that just go from course to course to without practicing what they learn.

Anyways, this year I took Normoxic Tri-Mix to see some of the nicer wrecks as that is where they lie at. In order to get my mixes, I took my gas blending course. Next year, I plan to take a step back in depth and look at starting down the real dark side towards rebreathers. Then I have another year or so to get used to diving a rebreather instead of OC. I'll have a year or so where I do my deeper wrecks on OC Tri-mix and shallow diving on CCR to build up experience on the RB before taking it deeper.

[Latitude Adjustment]

Well I got certified in NJ and we don't have reefs, or many rocks for that matter or pretty fish, just wrecks!
Like the song says "you love the one your with" but in looking back at the wreck pentatrations we did in the early 70's without what is now required equipment it's a wonder I'm still here but our dive club never lost anyone.
Most of those WWII wrecks have now collapsed and I've moved on to watching the critters, usually in warmer waters.

[PerroneFord]

Wreckwench told me that I'd be excited by the answers I'd recieved here, and I was skeptical. No longer. I think I am going to like it here!

I'll guess I'll fork over the money this week.

-P

[hnladue]

P-
You need to come up this way and see the freshwater wrecks!! Nothing like see rope, coiled on a deck, from the early 1800's, looking like it just got there!! Being able to see a complete schooner, intact, over a 100 yrs old, looking like all it needs are it's sails is truly amazing. DiverBrian has a picture of me next to the bow of the Aloha and you can see the depth marks, in roman numerals, still carved in the wood.

Salt water wrecks I'm sure are great too, but after a while they disappear. It's a shame! Think of the slave ship, if it were up this way.... still sitting upright, with it's masts and rigging, all complete!! Wow!

Heather.

[PerroneFord]

P-
Think of the slave ship, if it were up this way.... still sitting upright, with it's masts and rigging, all complete!! Wow!

Heather.

Yea,

I'm familiar with the remarkable preservation of the freshwater wrecks. Watching the stuff on the Edmund Fitzgerald was amazing.

But in regards to the slave ships... they didn't really venture into the great lakes I don't think..

Thanks for the offer, and after I get a bit further in my training (including dry suit) I intend to come up there and swim around a lot.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I may ask for a special course from one of the tech instructors.  I think TDI also does a wreck course, and perhaps there is one in NAUI, but I can't recall.

NAUI has full wreck and also full cave training.

Oh, and neither of you guys gave any indication of your training or agencies.  I'd be quite curious to know how you went about learning to do this well.

Are you really sure you want the list? My hands might fall off from all that typing.

I purposely took courses from several different agencies and instructors along the way. I took my time, got lots of experience between levels, and made sure that I was always learning (I am still sometimes reading at least two or three dive related books at a time).

Since you asked: Some of the training agencies included NASDS (now SSI), PADI, NAUI, TDI, IANTD, NSSCDS and GUE. (Maybe I am forgetting a few! ) Non-professional certifications include technical decompression and trimix. My highest dive certification has been as a NAUI Course Director. I have also held professional ratings in related agencies such as Divers Alert Network and the Red Cross. I have completed training up through the level of physicians that become certified in diving medicine (though I skipped the medical school and doctor part and went straight to the diving related stuff ).

In the end, due to the abundance of wrecks in this area, technical wreck based techniques were the subject of much of my training, and this was also an area of emphasis for instruction of my students. The more you do it, the more it becomes second nature. That's really all there is to it: get the training, and then do it frequently.

[casematic]

I cringe when I hear others talk about doing this with their AOW or after they take a cavern class. 

There in itself is a scary thought.... and probably one of the reasons that statistically scuba has more accidents than skydiving (or so a skydiving buddy of mine tells me)..... But the point would be that a 'lack of proper training'... and not nearly enough 'respect' for the water is a sure mix for big problems. I wouldn't take anything lightly unless I had gills... I won't do caves myself, but a big open wreck is nice.... as long as there is plenty of room in it and I never venture to where I can't see my exit (thats just my comfort level right now, maybe over time that will increase). My certification level is NAUI Master. But with just over 200 dives, I think what that really means that I have plenty of classes and possess much of the rudimentary knowledge, but still need a lot of experience to actually call myself a master. Everyone has a comfort level unique to themselves .... don't push your envelope to where you aren't comfortable. We always had an unwritten rule on dives.... that anyone could call the dive off for any reason (without fear of peer pressure or getting razzed)...

KC

[George]

Great thread. I am learning a great deal as I look forward to doing some wreckdivng soon! Thank you for starting this.