26 replies to this topic

[Trimix2dive]

Since most dive accidents happen to OW and AOW students, shouldn't the rescue class be taught as part of and just after the OW instruction before they can get their C Card?

I believe YES.

What do you believe? Even if its wrong.

[Basslet]

I think your premise is wrong. Most of the accidents I've been reading about lately have happened to highly experienced divers, including DMs and instructors. However, I think that OW certifications are laughable. Even AOW cert left me unprepared for some incidents.
Better navigation, buoyancy control and drills in safety procedures should be manadory.

Edited by Fairybasslet, 25 September 2005 - 10:06 AM.

[Trimix2dive]

Well maybe to much got read into this initially. Yes the deaths on the high end divers does get all the publicity.

But since that makes us less than 5% of the diving public, lets focus on the dropped weight belt bubble hits or air embolisims
the tank on foot syndrom
heat or cold exposure things that everybody comes in contact with.

For now lets leave out cave exploration and wreck penetration deaths.

[drbill]

Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me. I seem to remember that in my OW class (Los Angeles County ca 1960's) we had a limited amount of rescue training for certification. Of course this was no two day class... it took two weeks as I remember plus the ocean and beach dives.

Most of the accidents and deaths I see (and they are all too regular for my taste) are newly certified (or being certified) divers or those who have not dived in a long time and return to the water without refreshing their skills.

[scubafanatic]

Since most dive accidents happen to OW and AOW students, shouldn't the rescue class be taught as part of and just after the OW instruction before they can get their C Card?

I believe YES.

What do you believe?  Even if its wrong. 

....well, I think it will be a cold day in 'the hot place' before the dive industry sanctions your approach..........it isn't considered politically-correct to mention the possibilty of accidents in scuba-diving...it's bad for sales.

.......for what it's worth, my impression is that the bulk of diving accidents involve brand-new or very-inexperienced divers.......or the 'couch-potatoe' , older , one-dive-trip-a-year crowd.

[Basslet]

Maybe I read different boards or something. I'm not even talking about cave or wreck diving. I'm talking about an experienced diver getting blown off Hole in the Wall in Jupiter. Or even what happened at CoCoView.

But I will say this. I think training should go back to what it was in the olden days when Dr. Bill started out.

[Brinybay]

Since most dive accidents happen to OW and AOW students, shouldn't the rescue class be taught as part of and just after the OW instruction before they can get their C Card?

I believe YES.

What do you believe? Even if its wrong.

I think at one time it was (see bill's post). I don't even think the AOW should be split from OW. OW, AOW, and Rescue should be all one cert.

[Trimix2dive]

Thats the direction I was headed with this thread Brinybay. It could be called the five atmospheres scuba diving training course - all 3 wrapped together.

1 massive certifying course - that makes the student have some skin in the game to actually learn the information they were being fed. Not just regurgeitate it hours after being spoon fed.

Edited by Trimix2dive, 25 September 2005 - 11:51 AM.

[WreckWench]

Thats the direction I was headed with this thread Brinybay.  It could be called the five atmospheres scuba diving training course - all 3 wrapped together.

1 massive certifying course - that makes the student have some skin in the game to actually learn the information they were being fed.  Not just regurgeitate it hours after being spoon fed.

But how many people would stick with something that long? I think that divers are given some choices right now...and they usually choose price or timing issues. It's only those of us who are now certified that realize how much we don't know and wish we could of had more training. However how many would have actually stuck with a class that long? I know I would not have however I have certainly gone back for more training at every opportunity that I can now.

[casematic]

Don't forget about the resort courses (a couple of hours....maybe). And the few people I have talked to that have taken those were under the mistaken idea that they weren't in any real danger because they weren't going any deeper than 30'. I think that there should definitely be more classroom time and rescue proceedures as a part of the initial OW.... More knowledge can only be a good thing in giving a person the proper respect for the environment they are entering..... one in which you are completely dependant on equipment to provide your most basic need..... Air.

KC

[ScubaDadMiami]

Some excellent points are raised here.

According to the Annual Report on Decompression Illness, Diving Fatalities and Project Dive Exploration, the largest sector of accidents in diving actually occurs to divers holding advanced diving certifications. For deaths, it is slightly higher for advanced compared to entry level divers. The overwhelming majority of accidents and deaths occurred with males as compared with females (this goes well beyond consideration of the number of each sex of diver in the general popluation). You can see all of the statistics by going to www.DiversAlertNetwork.org, however, you must be a member to see the actual reports.

I have a theory on this: Divers who have a fair number of dives under their proverbial dive belts tend to have advanced certifications. However, having that certification, they do not continue their dive education, they do not dive frequently, they do not remain sharp in their skills, they do not practice their skills, and they become complacent about their diving habits, giving them a false sense of security that puts them into situations where accidents and deaths occur. Throw in a little male macho ego, and some or all of these combinations lead to a higher number of injuries and deaths. Again, this is just my personal observation; I do not have conclusive proof of my beliefs.

Some agencies, such as NAUI, require fairly in-depth rescue techniques to be taught at all levels of certification (a resort course is not certification). Even in skin diving classes for children, students must bring a submerged unconscious diver to the surface, and tow the diver while performing ventilations.

My ideal entry level class is to teach Skin Diver, Scuba Diver, Advanced Diver and Rescue Diver as one academy of learning. Additionally, students would take DAN, CPR and first aid training concurrently. As John Lennon once said: "You might say I'm a dreamer. But, I'm not the only one."

Wenchie brings out an excellent real world point in that, until we have the experience, one does not realize what we need in the form of "adequate" initial training before having sufficient experience to go out and use our license to learn on our own in the real world. It is pretty much impossible to explain this to one that has not yet had the experience. So, many people do not want to invest the time and money into this training.

Only if all agencies required this as a minimum would people become willing to invest what it takes for a proper start. Good luck on waiting for that day to come!

[casematic]

I have a theory on this:  Divers who have a fair number of dives under their proverbial dive belts tend to have advanced certifications.  However, having that certification, they do not continue their dive education, ..... etc...

(Read the post above)

I think your theory is 100% valid.... one of the reasons I try to keep a little sharper and continue to renew my respect for the water... As a beginning OW, I know that I exceeded my skill level on a few occasions... even got rolled around in the surf once in some waves and busted up my new camera setup - fortunately a cheap one (I think I had about 40 dives by then and may have been just a little overconfident)... definitely gained a healthy respect for the ocean. It increased my skill level considerably as a matter of necessity, but trial by fire may not be the best approach for people to take.

My point with the resort course (which I realize is only good at the resort and chaparoned) was that the possible dangers aren't even hardly mentioned... And as WW says, we don't even realize ourselves until we get involved with diving how much we DON'T know.

KC

[WreckWench]

I do think that forums such as these HELP divers realize how little they know without offending them in the process or worse yet...having one of those 'come to the proverbial lord' experiences I know I've had more times than I care to admit!

And when we all focus on how to become a better diver rather than 'who's agency is better', the diver can make a more informed decision...even as a newbie! Now that is what its all about! -ww

[peterbj7]

I started with BSAC many years ago in England. Their entry-level course was at that time very comprehensive, covering scuba diving, freediving, rescue for self and others, boat handling, (boat) navigation, a dive & trip planning to quite a level of detail. All in a club environment, where your instructors knew you over a long period. Rather like what I believe the YMCA was in the States. Took an age, but if you completed it you were well equipped to face British waters afterwards. But that's the point - not many did stick it out, and once the new modular and professional (in the sense of contractual) approach came across the pond people began moving to it in droves.

I didn't know the American warm water training bodies then, but I know Walter has made posts to the effect that the requirements placed by PADI (for example) have steadily dwindled ever since those days. Sadly BSAC has also dunned down its training in a desperate attempt to regain some of the market it lost in the UK. I say sadly because I do agree with the sentiments expressed here, but today's world is different from the 60's, and people now have more money and less time for activities like scuba diving. We have moved into an instant gratification age, and anyone who tries to buck that trend will simply fail.

[ScubaDadMiami]

My point with the resort course (which I realize is only good at the resort and chaparoned) was that the possible dangers aren't even hardly mentioned... And as WW says, we don't even realize ourselves until we get involved with diving how much we DON'T know.

I made a personal decision a long time ago that I would not teach resort courses. I just don't want to be involved with them at all.