46 replies to this topic

[normblitch]

Thank you for the very quick and frank response.  I haven't been on a dive boat in 11 years.  And quite honestly, I see more doubles than single tanks here (not speaking of boats). 

I have a feeling I am in for a RUDE awakening when I get on a boat again! 

My Friend,

You are INDEED going to be in for a fright...

When traveling to S FL, I use my Hogarthian bp/wing/harness (although getting the cam bands to securely clasp on an AL80 instead of the trusted steelie 95 is a pain), add a second DR Clipper weight pocket to replace the cannister on the RT waist, and have a separate reg rig which is dedicated to OW; single 1st, 7' hose primary second, and normal back-up second on bungee necklace. I had Gamble put two pockets (one slim, one cargo) on my 5mil, and leave normal Cave contents therein... Works like a CHARM! Well tested in Pennekamp last May.

http://www.pbase.com/eanx/tstack5_05

My "wing" is in reality a DR Venture cell, a trapazoid doughnut if you will...UW photography requires not only the trim of Overhead, but ALSO the need to be neutrally stable in ALL 3 axis's...sort of like an aerobatic aircraft...

Although in True, the looks and ???'s I get from the Divers and even DM's * AOWI's are PRICELESS! Equally priceless is the economy of Energy used both UW and Topside of a minimalist rig...

Any honest UW photog will admit that most of their craft is practiced "solo", whether virtually or actually (unless you are to the level of a Hall or Frink etc and have Observer Diver helpies). If I am traveling by myself, I try to align myself onboard with another UW photog (same Dive, same Ocean Buddy), or depend on DM's that know my solo style, which is to descend to the anchor/buoy line, and work a radius from there which is LESS than the "viz of the Day"

Norm

[jholley309]

1.  If you are turning your dive at appropriate times, why wouldn't your buddy have enough gas to get you both to the surface?

Well, I try to plan dives to get me to the surface with 500 PSI left in the tank. (First backup-leave a reserve.) If something happens that makes me intrude on that reserve, such as entanglement near the end of the dive that takes longer than usual to get out of, I need a backup to that. If that's why I'm low on or out of air, chances are good that my buddy is too; at the very least, his tank may be low enough so that it won't support both of us all the way up.

Second, I do not, nor will I ever, count on my buddy to solve problems for me; he's just there in case everything else has gone to hell and I have no other option to get to the surface safely. Anything that makes me more self-sufficient is a good thing for me, and a good thing for my buddy. His regular job is to stick with me and look at the pretty fishies when I point to them.

2.  If you are exceeding deco limits, wouldn't it make more sense to be diving doubles?  It's a far cleaner solution to the "redundant gas" issue.

As a recreational diver, I do not plan for decompression dives. Ever. If I bust an NDL for any reason, I'm in an emergency deco situation. As mentioned above, I plan dives to leave a reserve in my main tank (usually an AL80), but if I got really carried away and have to do a 15 minute stop, it's nice to know that I have enough reserve to do that without breathing the tank empty, and still have another "reserve" in the pony. Doubles are probably in my future at some point, but not until I start going deep enough where I'll need them, and not until I learn how to do decompression dives. The pony bottle is simply an emergency measure, and for me is a "cleaner" solution to doubles.

3.  When you dive a pony, is the tank turned on for the entire dive, or dou you only pressurize the tank when you run out of air on the other one.

For now, it's turned on for the entire dive, only because I have to mount it valve-up and have difficulty reaching the valve that way. Eventually, I'll get a longer hose put on the secondary so I can mount the bottle valve-down; I'll try just pressurizing the line and waiting to turn it on until I need it. Then again, I may just stick with it the way it is for simplicity: in an emergency, all I have to do is shove the second stage in my face and breathe.

4.  How do you monitor the pony bottle to make sure it's not leaking?  Either from the regulator if it's on, or from the hoses if it's charged.

It's checked for pressure before donning the BC. With the second stage directly below my chin, I'll know immediately if it freeflows, and I'll be able to hear a leak from the tank. I'm still on the fence about a hose-mounted SPG; for now, there's a pony gauge on the HP port of the first stage.

6.  At 80ft how long would a 6cuft h2odyssey last?

Not long enough! That's why I went with the 19; for me, it's a more useful compromise between capacity and extra weight/streamlining. With the exception of a long emergency deco stop, it's more than enough air to do a normal ascent. After all, that's its main function for me: as soon as I go to the pony, I'm on the way up. I believe the term for that is a "bailout bottle", no? Actually, for a 30 ft/min ascent, I'd probably be able to get to the surface on 6 CF, but I'd probably have to skip the safety stop to do it. Those stops are there for a reason, and I'd just as soon not skip it.

7.  Do you test breathing off the pony at the beginning of each dive to make certain it's working normally?

Absolutely! It's part of my gear-up zen routine. I don't take anything into the water that I don't check first, then check again. By the time the buddy check rolls around, that's the third time it's been checked. It's like a preflight checklist: same way, every time. That way I don't miss anything. It bugs people sometimes when they just want to get in the water, but it's my neck I'm risking; I'm going to take the steps I deem necessary to ensure its safety. Well, the rest of me, too. Incidentally, that's why I like diving with known buddies; they're used to me taking a little extra time with the pre-dive check, making complete notes on the slate before we descend, completing the slate when we surface, checking the tables before we go back down...was I the only one who paid attention during training?!

They are frowned upon in the technical community for a number of reasons, but seem quite popular for open water divers.

Well, I'm not a technical diver yet. Frown if you must, but it works for me. To quote a former supervisor:

"If it's stupid but it works, it's not that stupid."


Cheers!

Jim

[PerroneFord]

Didn't mean to imply the pony was stupid at all. In fact, having redundant gas is ALWAYS a smart idea. I don't have any yet, but probably will soon. I'm not sure yet whether I'll sling a 40 first with my single tank, or go straight to doubles. Most likely, I'll go to doubles. Since I have a plate an wing, it's the easiest for me.

One of the things that concerns me is the whole idea of "getting back on the boat with 500psi". I hear that a lot but usually divers are not given the tools with which to plan it. Gas management seems woefully lacking in OW class. I know we never touched on it, and neither did my friends class a few months ago. The idea of rock-bottom calculations or turning on thirds (or halves) is generally lost on recreational divers. Apparently so is the idea of being a good buddy. I think that is unfortunate because it leaves divers to fend for themselves when they shouldn't have to.

In looking at the dive accidents I've seen or heard about in the past year or so, in nearly every case, the problem boiled down to either poor gas management, or poor buddy skills. I suppose some of the buddy stuff can't be avoided if you head out on a boat without a partner. I know I'll proably be in that position more than I care to.

And Jim, you may want to check that pony AFTER you get in the water. Sometimes regs that seem fine on the surface are not fine underwater. That thing could be breathing wet, and you'd never know it until it's too late. Maybe check it out on your bubble check at 10-15 feet on descent.

Stay safe!

[normblitch]

Didn't mean to imply the pony was stupid at all.  In fact, having redundant gas is ALWAYS a smart idea.  I don't have any yet, but probably will soon.  I'm not sure yet whether I'll sling a 40 first with my single tank, or go straight to doubles.  Most likely, I'll go to doubles.  Since I have a plate an wing, it's the easiest for me.

One of the things that concerns me is the whole idea of "getting back on the boat with 500psi".  I hear that a lot but usually divers are not given the tools with which to plan it.  Gas management seems woefully lacking in OW class.  I know we never touched on it, and neither did my friends class a few months ago.  The idea of rock-bottom calculations or turning on thirds (or halves) is generally lost on recreational divers.  Apparently so is the idea of being a good buddy.  I think that is unfortunate because it leaves divers to fend for themselves when they shouldn't have to.

In looking at the dive accidents I've seen or heard about in the past year or so, in nearly every case, the problem boiled down to either poor gas management, or poor buddy skills.  I suppose some of the buddy stuff can't be avoided if you head out on a boat without a partner.  I know I'll proably be in that position more than I care to.

And Jim, you may want to check that pony AFTER you get in the water.  Sometimes regs that seem fine on the surface are not fine underwater.  That thing could be breathing wet, and you'd never know it until it's too late.  Maybe check it out on your bubble check at 10-15 feet on descent.

Stay safe!

Given my experiences with an AL40 O2 deco bottle, I can attest that it IS DOABLE with a Hogarthian single tank rig. Biggest problem I found was clipping it ON the harness on entry...I'm getting ready to switch from generic D's and slides to the Highland Meaty-Beefy D's which should help...also, doing to bigger Bolt-snaps helps as well. You can give it a go when we do Ginnie...

Roger the Air Management issue...although I honestly think that some of the "True Believer" types who dive thirds on Beach dives are a bit extreme, in OW situations I feel NAKED (and THAT thought will put your eyes out) below 1000 psi. As I have aged, my Boldness was been drained while my Zen has increased. I stay closer to the Boat, and PREFER to enter AND exit early. I have an (undeserved) good SAC, but I ALWAYS remember that Sudden High Intensity Training (look here for an acronymn) will adversely affect Breathing Rates expotentially. Remember also, there is NO reg that can not be over-breathed in a full blown Panic.

AND, let's remember that in the Real World, OOA situations are NOT as trained/planned...Chances are that the first thing you know (as the Donor) is that in ONE swift and unexpected motion, your Mask and Primary 2nd are BOTH ripped from you NOT by your Buddy, but most likely by someone NOT even in your own Group.

Good Planning and drill keep the "Knocks from the Inside of Bickley's Closet Door" to a minimum, and therefore increase Zen, and lower the SAC.

Norm

[Marvel]

...although I honestly think that some of the "True Believer" types who dive thirds on Beach dives are a bit extreme....

Couldn't agree with you more on this one, Norm. Fortunately, my regular dive buddies who dive my side yard with me do not insist on this- even my GUE buddies! I do have one buddy that I do have to coach sometimes on pushing the turn time a bit too far, though. That person has great air consumption & wants to make the dive last as long as possible. Trouble is, a turning pressure that is perfectly acceptable for us is really not for most of the other divers that visit or pop over for the infrequent dive. Balance, that's the key, IMHO. Got to encourage that diver to use a shop that doesn't have to drain a tank prior to filling it & charges by the cubic foot

As to diving the rule of thirds, I rarely ever get to practice that in my dives. Usually, I'm out of bottom time or my buddy is to their turning point well before I am. Case in point- I dived the RSB1 with a couple of divers a few months ago. Max depth was 104, lots of current that day, total dive time was :28. One buddy came up with about 1000 psi (GUE diver who uses the rule of thirds), another with 500 & I came up with 1800. Our 2nd dive was a drift dive with a max depth of 59 ft & total dive time of :50. The first buddy came up with about 1000 psi again, the 2nd wasn't communicating very well (to put it mildly) & didn't want to call the dive- he came up with MAYBE 100 psi & I came up with 1800 again. Hmmm... maybe us smokers DO have an advantage, Norm?

And, yes, we did have a conversation about calling dives at the appropriate time. I like to stress to visiting/infrequent divers who tell me that they don't want to cut my dive short that I really don't care- I dive all the time anyway (barring hurricanes) & their enjoyment, comfort, & safety is more important to me.

[normblitch]

...although I honestly think that some of the "True Believer" types who dive thirds on Beach dives are a bit extreme....

Couldn't agree with you more on this one, Norm. Fortunately, my regular dive buddies who dive my side yard with me do not insist on this- even my GUE buddies! I do have one buddy that I do have to coach sometimes on pushing the turn time a bit too far, though. That person has great air consumption & wants to make the dive last as long as possible. Trouble is, a turning pressure that is perfectly acceptable for us is really not for most of the other divers that visit or pop over for the infrequent dive. Balance, that's the key, IMHO. Got to encourage that diver to use a shop that doesn't have to drain a tank prior to filling it & charges by the cubic foot

As to diving the rule of thirds, I rarely ever get to practice that in my dives. Usually, I'm out of bottom time or my buddy is to their turning point well before I am. Case in point- I dived the RSB1 with a couple of divers a few months ago. Max depth was 104, lots of current that day, total dive time was :28. One buddy came up with about 1000 psi (GUE diver who uses the rule of thirds), another with 500 & I came up with 1800. Our 2nd dive was a drift dive with a max depth of 59 ft & total dive time of :50. The first buddy came up with about 1000 psi again, the 2nd wasn't communicating very well (to put it mildly) & didn't want to call the dive- he came up with MAYBE 100 psi & I came up with 1800 again. Hmmm... maybe us smokers DO have an advantage, Norm?

And, yes, we did have a conversation about calling dives at the appropriate time. I like to stress to visiting/infrequent divers who tell me that they don't want to cut my dive short that I really don't care- I dive all the time anyway (barring hurricanes) & their enjoyment, comfort, & safety is more important to me.

Just a SWAG here, but I'm betting you know Matt, mannydib, karla, and the rest of the Usual Suspects on Yahoo E-Divers...

The first time met Matt was on a beach dive at Daytura...he has steelie dubs, and 2 deco bottles (100%, AND 50/50). OTOH, he WALKED out of the surf, and I, well, it WASN'T pretty...

Re the smoking...perhaps we are more cognizant of gas use and adapt accordingly...FWIW, DAN sez patches beat smoking and Diving!!

Norm

[Marvel]

Know them all- I happen to be a lurker on that board as well. In fact, Matt is the DIR diver that I referenced elsewhere- what a cool guy! And, he does take it so well when I bust on him but he's never hesitant about going out with a bunch of ummmmm, well- Perrone knows the term! He's also a wealth of knowledge & I want to touch base with him about how to rig my new bp/w setup. I'll be switching from using Zeagle's version of the Air II to an octo & although, I'm not going the long hose route, would like some pointers on keeping it all Holgarthian. I'm already planning to take all my gauges off except for my SPG, use a shorter hose, & switch to a wrist compass.

Only dove with Manny one time but there ws certainly no "you're all gonna die" attitude out of him. As for the rest of the gang, they're constantly around diving in my side yard ,or a block north, so I see them frequently. Really nice bunch & a lot of fun to party with too.

[jholley309]

One of the things that concerns me is the whole idea of "getting back on the boat with 500psi". I hear that a lot but usually divers are not given the tools with which to plan it.

Hey, this sounds like a good subject for a new thread...

Cheers!

Jim

[normblitch]

Know them all- I happen to be a lurker on that board as well. In fact, Matt is the DIR diver that I referenced elsewhere- what a cool guy! And, he does take it so well when I bust on him but he's never hesitant about going out with a bunch of ummmmm, well- Perrone knows the term!  He's also a wealth of knowledge & I want to touch base with him about how to rig my new bp/w setup. I'll be switching from using Zeagle's version of the Air II to an octo & although, I'm not going the long hose route, would like some pointers on keeping it all Holgarthian. I'm already planning to take all my gauges off except for my SPG, use a shorter hose, & switch to a wrist compass.

Only dove with Manny one time but there ws certainly no "you're all gonna die" attitude out of him. As for the rest of the gang, they're constantly around diving in my side yard ,or a block north, so I see them frequently. Really nice bunch & a lot of fun to party with too.

If I can't talk you into the long hose, at LEAST use a bungee necklace...rec length Octo hose will be fine...Fill Exp should have pre-made necklaces, or I could get you one when I go to GInnie next time. BTW...Oh, and you WILL need to stop calling it "OCTO'...NOW it will be the "redundant 2nd"

One thing you should be aware about regarding the classy short CPG (oops, SPG...my vintage is showing) hose; be ready to NOT have it easily readable while clipped to the left waist D-ring. I use an ENORMOUS bolt-slide clip to make it easier to take long looks...Your Flexibility may vary

What B/P & wing? Mighty glad to hear you are getting away from the combo inflator/octo...they remind me of Futons; by Day, a miserable Sofa...By night, a horrible Bed....

Tip for the new Wing...(again at Fill Exp) try to get a VERY VERY short hose from the Elbow (whing should have NO DUMP) to the Inflator (and matching LP hose)...I finally got mine shortened to where the Inflator is JUST forward of my shoulder. You know how you were (probably) taught to hold the Inflator overhead when dumping? Now there is NO NEED for this...In good trim, the pressure will perfectly equalize with a mere tap...I'll try to take a snap of how mine looks.

My forearms are loaded: Left, compass (on a darling bungee rig), Right, SUUNTO Vyper and rakishly cheap Casio watch.

All these mods WILL be worthwhile!

Yours in Hogarthianism,
Norm

[TraceMalin]

And, let's not forget the regulators that you can take apart underwater. I had to do that today because my primary was breathing wet. I found I need a new diaphragm at 80 feet, but I was able to fiddle with it and get an okay seat.

Got to use my third regulator too!

Trace

[Marvel]

LOL! OK, henceforth I shall only refer to it as my redundant 2nd. Now, why do I feel as if I'm traveling further down the path to the dark side? I'll be going by Fill Express later this week to get my fills for next weekend's trip to Ginnie Springs so I'll look into the bungee. Going up there for a MegaDive party with a bunch of friends & soon to be friends. I know Perrone is going to be there but if you're planning on being around, we should definitely plan to meet up.

[normblitch]

LOL! OK, henceforth I shall only refer to it as my redundant 2nd. Now, why do I feel as if I'm traveling further down the path to the dark side? I'll be going by Fill Express later this week to get my fills for next weekend's trip to Ginnie Springs so I'll look into the bungee. Going up there for a MegaDive party with a bunch of friends & soon to be friends. I know Perrone is going to be there but if you're planning on being around, we should definitely plan to meet up.

NEXT WEEKEND?

As in FL-GA?

I started planning to be at Rennakers Appreciation Party on next Sat until I realized that it was THE WEEKEND (sorry, I bleed Orange & Blue)...AND, I wanted to AVOID the I-10 corridor...hard to write pithy goodby's in WetNotes whilst being slammed by a DUI Football Fan on the Interstate...

BUT, I MUST consider a day trip there Sunday...we're talkin' 10/30. right??

Norm


BTW, the side is ONLY dark if your entire closet is Black Jeans and Blacker T-shirts...

[Marvel]

<GROAN> As a Gator mom, I should have known better.... I can only plead ignorance since my daughter no longer goes there.

Dates are correct. I believe the plan is to head get up there before dark this Friday to set up the tent; dive hang out, play with the kids & grownups on Saturday & head back south early enough in the day on Sunday to be back by dark.

[PerroneFord]

Ya gotta do what works for you. I don't think I'll dive a single without redundant gas after I finish my nitrox class. I'll be slinging a bottle though instead of using a pony bracket. Horses for courses.

[Diverbrian]

2. If you are exceeding deco limits, wouldn't it make more sense to be diving doubles? It's a far cleaner solution to the "redundant gas" issue.

.........the vast majority of my dive trips are done on single AL80's........ sometimes I'm fortunate enough to be able to request AL100's, LP 95's, or HP 120's (singles) but the majority of the time I'm stuck with single AL80's.........doubles ??? ...that's a laugh.....for example, can you show me how many SD.com trips offered 'doubles' as an option ? ....only rarely are single 'large' tanks available, much less 'doubles'.

Actually, until I got onto looking at SD trips, I hadn't heard of operations in the warmer waters that would rent any tanks larger than an eighty. SD is one of the better operators in arranging these rentals in the tropical areas from what I have seen. Larger tanks are nice if you are comfortable with taking down enough air to possibly put you into trouble (a staged deco obligation).

Many ops want to artificially limit your bottom time so that they can get two runs a day done be home for the wife and kids. I was on an operation in Gary, IND were the divers made a gentlemen's agreement to limit all run times to an hour as we wanted to do four dives (four different wrecks and all but one of them maxed out depth-wise at 30 ft.). Bottom time was too easy to get, even with AL80's. As it was, we didn't get off of Lake Michigan until about 6-7 pm on Saturday night and we started at the standard 8 am.

As to the suggestions for moving doubles from Trace. He is correct and they are all good ones. Except, I have trouble envisioning a shop being willing to take the risk of a customer opening up their VIP'ed tanks to replace their K-Valves with a dual manifold. This may require more than a few shekels. I haven't had to fly in quite a while. The fly-in destinations that I am looking at have doubles available for rental as they have people that I know willing to scrounge a set up for me.

As the position of a pony bottle, I have my reasons for preferring that they be kept slung. The primary one is that I can see the valve and when I turn it back on, sometimes the DIN fitting has come slightly loose in transit. I can immediately see bubbles from the valve and shut it. Then, I tighten and repeat the opening of the valve. It also makes for easier operation of the tank valve. But, keep in mind that I am used to diving with deco bottles, so this will be my preferred way to keep any deco bottle.