123 replies to this topic

[annasea]

A very wise bird suggested to me recently that I may be better off learning to dive in a backplate and wings set-up rather than the jacket-style BC I was using in the confined dives portion of my ill-fated PADI OW course.

Firstly, come someone please explain just how these BP/Ws work? I saw a pic of one and it didn't seem to come with a built-in buoyancy device. Do you add that on separately? Is that what is referred to as a bladder?

Secondly, why is it easier, or is it easier to learn in a BP/W versus a BC?

Thirdly, how many people actually use a BP/W on a regular basis?

Fourthly, do some situations lend themselves better to a BP/W rather than a BC?

And lastly, did I even get the abbreviation right? (Quick! Let me know, please, before Trace reads this. )

TIA!

[Capn Jack]

Brace yerself lass, religious wars be on their way!!

BP/W - Back Plate/Wing

Like a lot of SCUBA, the BP/wing and jacket debate has some very vocal folks on both sides. There are also hybrids - like the Scubapro ladyhawk and Zeagle Zena - that are basically jackets with a back-mounted bladder. Try to rent/borrow a few of both and try them yourself before committing.

The BP/Wing setup starts with a harness, and everything else is basically components. You can swap bladders for different lift requirements, swap backplates for different tank configurations.

There is a lot of hype and propaganda around if you search the scubaboard forums.

I don't think I have an opinion that's worth anything, but here goes: BP/Wing are definitely the way to go if you're looking at becoming a cave or technical diver. The price point is probably about the same.

With wings you're getting a lot of flexibilty and growth, but it's slightly more complex to get setup correctly than a jacket. The jacket has the advantage there in ease of use for first-timers - quick release buckles, adjustable cumberbunds, straps etc.

BP/Wings are good in that they're expandable and if you end up diving twins and/or stage you'll probably need the extra lift they tend to provide. BP/Wings have the ability to move and put D-rings pretty much anywhere on the harness but they lack pockets for storage. Its a trade-off . You also carry less weight since the backplates are usually steel and weigh 4-6 pounds in and of themselves.

For buoyancy, wings are the best for horizontal swimming and effort, but some folks say they're a little tricky to get used to. On the surface jackets tend to hold you upright, but I find a back-inflate or wing is also very comfortable if you just lean back like in an easy-chair. I've heard photographers say they like jackets better because they often want to be vertical - especially head-down, and a jacket makes that easier.

Some wings have a 1 piece harness which takes time to adjust and requires effort to alter for every change in suit after that. some wings do have a nice quick release with buckles and so on. Again, trying a few to see which you like is a sensible idea.

As usual, no right or wrong answer (although I'm probably going to hear about that)

Edited by Capn Jack, 06 November 2005 - 11:16 PM.

[Diverbrian]

Caetlonn,

You got the abbreviation right .

Now for the important part. The BP stands for backplate. This is normally connected the wing. That would be the buoyancy compensation device. Mine connect by bolts that run through the BP/W from my tanks.

Onto the BP, you weave the webbing for your harness. The neat thing is that while it will fit you as a custom made device once you are done. It just takes time to get the initial set-up right.

So, the harness fits you and allows you to strap on your backplate which is connected to your tank(s) and wing. The D-Rings on the harness are placed to fit your preferences. The weight of the back-plate reduces the need for a weight belt or integrated weights as well as spreading out the weight along your back to make it easier to maintain a horizontal trim in the water. That will make weighting issues a little easier.

Depending on your body type, the BP/W will likely be less restrictive in the chest area than the jacket BC's that you were working with. That would make one more comfortable. The webbing allows for a "custom fit" so that you likely would barely notice having gear on underwater.

The front area is cleared for whatever gear that you want to take down with you and leaves common sense areas to clip things to.

I am sure that people will add more, so I will wrap this up here.

[Diverbrian]

Brace yerself lass, religious wars be on their way!!

Like a lot of SCUBA, the wing and jacket debate has some very vocal folks on both sides. There are also hybrids - like the Scubapro ladyhawk and Zeagle Zena - that are basically jackets with a back-mounted bladder. Try to rent/borrow a few of both and try them yourself before committing.

The BP/W setup starts with a harness, and everything else is basically components. You can swap bladders for different lift requirements, swap backplates for different tank configurations.

Theres a lot of hype and propaganda around if you search the scubaboard forums.

I don't think I have an opinion that's worth anything, but here goes: BP/W are definitely the way to go if you're looking at becoming a cave or technical diver. The price point is probably about the same.

With wings you're getting a lot of flexibilty and growth, but it's slightly more complex to get setup correctly than a jacket. The jacket has the advantage there in ease of use for first-timers - quick release buckles, adjustable cumberbunds, straps etc.

BP/Wings are good in that they're expandable and if you end up diving twins and/or stage you'll probably need the extra lift they tend to provide. Wings have the ability to move and put D-rings pretty much anywhere on the harness but they lack pockets for storage. Its a trade-off . You also carry less weight since the backplates are usually steel and weigh 4-6 pounds in and of themselves.

For buoyancy, wings are the best for horizontal swimming and effort, but some folks say they're a little tricky to get used to. On the surface jackets tend to hold you upright, but I find a back-inflate or wing is also very comfortable if you just lean back like in an easy-chair. I've heard photographers say they like jackets better because they allow often want to be vertical - especially head-down, and a jacket makes that easier.

Some wings have a 1 piece harness which takes time to adjust and requires effort to alter for every change in suit after that. some wings do have a nice quick release with buckles and so on. Again, trying a few to see which you like is a sensible idea.

As usual, no right or wrong answer (although I'm probably going to hear about that)

No religious wars here. If need be the mods will use their :mauswhip: to make that happen.

I did like my jacket BC when I was doing simple warm water photography for the reasons that you mention. It seemed to be more stable in positions other than horizontal. But, I haven't dove it in over a year, so I am more comfortable in a BP/W for everything that I do.

[TekDiveGirl]

Did somebody say bp/w??? (-;

Ok - here is my opinion -- I dive in a bp/w no matter what kind of diving I am doing -- tech diving in doubles -- dive mastering on the boat -- assisting a class -- a basic rec dive -- or shark diving in chain mail in 20' of water.

I my bp/w and have no use for any other setup. I can get myself happily in any other position and have been seen peacefully floating in many odd positions during decompression stops. So I am proof one can be in other than the horizontal position in the bp/w setup.

Once you get it dialed in - it is rock solid and becomes one on your body. There is no shifting that you get with the jacket BC. No riding up under your armpits you see on the surface with the jacket bc's. There is a simplicity in the harness setup that you also don't get with the jackets.

With the bp you get to center some of your weight right over your back taking weight off the hip area thus helping out your trim in a really nice way.

You can customize your bp in weight -- your bladder for lift -- things that are you are generally not able to do with a jacket.

You will never see me in a jacket except to keep warm after diving! (-;

[annasea]

Great info! Keep it coming!


back, Kimber!

[BeachBunny]

Okay so I have never used a BP/W but I have used both a jacket style BC and a back inflate BC. My personal preference between the two BCs goes to the back inflate. I like the "no squeeze" comfort and I love kicking back on the surface instead of trying to stay upright while the jacket rides up on my shoulders and I band my the back of my head on the tank. If you are going to try a BC go for the Zeagle Zena. If is quite customizable for your body, designed for a woman (does not sit on your hips), and does not squeeze thanks to the back inflation! My Zena has XS shoulder straps, Large BC, and a medium chest plate. I suspect it is the closest thing in a BC one can get to the BP/W setup comfort.

[mongoose]

I will tell you that I have had good success with my Zeagle Ranger, and I have had terrific success with my BP/W setup.

For me, the BP/W is more versatile and less cluttered. You can mix & match different plates, wings, tanks, etc., until it's just right for you.

--'Goose

[Latitude Adjustment]

Pretty much what everyone else said, I love my BP/W, it doesn't move around and no body squeeze.
Don't let the lack of pockets stop you, OMS makes a pair that each side has a small velco pocket (back-up light, shears,jon line) a large zippered pocket (slate, sausage) and a quick release weight pocket.
There was a discusion about this on D2D, go out and buy the best gear, dive with it and then sell it to a newbie for 10c on the $ so you can buy a BP/w set up.
BTW, I'm using a FredT BP, Halcyon wing, USD harness and OMS pockets but if I had it to do all over again would probably go with a Deep Sea Supply plastic travel BP and their wing.

[normblitch]

Brace yerself lass, religious wars be on their way!!

BP/W - Back Plate/Wing

Like a lot of SCUBA, the BP/wing and jacket debate has some very vocal folks on both sides.  There are also hybrids - like the Scubapro ladyhawk and Zeagle Zena - that are basically jackets with a back-mounted bladder.  Try to rent/borrow a few of both and try them yourself before committing.

The BP/Wing setup starts with a harness, and everything else is basically components.  You can swap bladders for different lift requirements, swap backplates for different tank configurations.

There is a lot of hype and propaganda around if you search the scubaboard forums.

I don't think I have an opinion that's worth anything, but here goes: BP/Wing are definitely the way to go if you're looking at becoming a cave or technical diver.  The price point is probably about the same.

With wings you're getting a lot of flexibilty and growth, but it's slightly more complex to get setup correctly than a jacket.  The jacket has the advantage there in ease of use for first-timers - quick release buckles, adjustable cumberbunds, straps etc.

BP/Wings are good in that they're expandable and if you end up diving twins and/or stage you'll probably need the extra lift they tend to provide. BP/Wings have the ability to move and put D-rings pretty much anywhere on the harness but they lack pockets for storage. Its a trade-off .  You also carry less weight since the backplates are usually steel and weigh 4-6 pounds in and of themselves.

For buoyancy, wings are the best for horizontal swimming and effort, but some folks say they're a little tricky to get used to.  On the surface jackets tend to hold you upright, but I find a back-inflate or wing is also very comfortable if you just lean back like in an easy-chair.  I've heard photographers say they like jackets better because they often want to be vertical - especially head-down, and a jacket makes that easier.

Some wings have a 1 piece harness which takes time to adjust and requires effort to alter for every change in suit after that. some wings do have a nice quick release with buckles and so on. Again, trying a few to see which you like is a sensible idea.

As usual, no right or wrong answer (although I'm probably going to hear about that)

Speaking as a Photographer, Caver, and occasional OW-er, a BP/W is clearly superior...
That said, my rig is BP/CELL, not a true wing...I currently use a DiveRite Venture CELL...

http://diversmarket....p?ProductID=125

notice that here, it is a closed "doughnut" BDC; air is never trapped on one side or the other...used with a s/s plate, LP95, cannister light on right belt, and (regretably being underheight for my weight) 3-5# lead in a DR Clipper pocket on the left waist, I can maintain a stable posture in ALL 3 axis' at ALL times...level, knife-edge, head up arse, or whatever position I need to not just snap, but actually compose and pop a pic...I know OMS makes a similar cell design as well, prolly others too.

since it will likelybe a while before you get a cannister light (as when I do Ocean Daylight dives), you can add a second Clipper on the right side...DR makes "Integrated weight" style pockets if that is your preference.

Re the $$$ ... IMHO, a "starter BP/cell" rig will cost the same as a top-notch recreational BCD...

Re the fit(ing)...There is ALWAYS a ramp-up time to get fully fitted in WHATEVER BCD you choose...IMHO, any slight increase in time getting a bp/Wing dialed in "spot on"is offset by the inevitable point in a Rec BCD where you just say, "Well, THAT is as good as it is going to GET"

Tell you what...I started my rig with a DR side-pocket on my left waist (easily carries a spare mask, spare double-ender, foldback knife, tables, etc), and when Steve Gamble put a couple of pockets on myHenderson 5mm suit I was able to go without it....IF you will START in a BP/W, I will GIVE you the pocket I no longer need...



Norm

[normblitch]

Did somebody say bp/w??? (-;

Ok - here is my opinion -- I dive in a bp/w no matter what kind of diving I am doing -- tech diving in doubles -- dive mastering on the boat -- assisting a class -- a basic rec dive -- or shark diving in chain mail in 20' of water.

I my bp/w and have no use for any other setup. I can get myself happily in any other position and have been seen peacefully floating in many odd positions during decompression stops. So I am proof one can be in other than the horizontal position in the bp/w setup.

Once you get it dialed in - it is rock solid and becomes one on your body. There is no shifting that you get with the jacket BC. No riding up under your armpits you see on the surface with the jacket bc's. There is a simplicity in the harness setup that you also don't get with the jackets.

With the bp you get to center some of your weight right over your back taking weight off the hip area thus helping out your trim in a really nice way.

You can customize your bp in weight -- your bladder for lift -- things that are you are generally not able to do with a jacket.

You will never see me in a jacket except to keep warm after diving! (-;

Norm

[normblitch]

I will tell you that I have had good success with my Zeagle Ranger, and I have had terrific success with my BP/W setup.

For me, the BP/W is more versatile and less cluttered. You can mix & match different plates, wings, tanks, etc., until it's just right for you.

--'Goose

Another great point...

In the Community, there is always a brisk market in lightly used Components...the infinite varient of add-ons allows us to tweak our rigs; and the Universal mountings allow us to recover $$$ value from components we no longer use...

Norm

[TekDiveGirl]

Great info! Keep it coming!


back, Kimber!

Thanks!! I am glad to be here..

And it is noted later -- you can sell your your pieces when you decided to change or upgrade really easily and usually you don't take much of a hit. This gear does hold it' resale value -- and people will buy it -- You can't do that with your jacket bc.

Of course as is evidenced by my garage --- some of us don't do that --- and end up with a setup for every kind of diving instead!!!

Written by the girl who has 4 sets of doubles - 4 wings -- 2 backplates - etc etc etc ---

[PerroneFord]

When I certified, I was in a jacket. Hated it. A few months later, I bought a Zeagle back inflate. I liked that much better, but didn't dive it much. I sold it shortly thereafter. When I got back into diving, I asked around on this very question, but it was clear to me. The BP/W just made sense from every aspect I could think of. So I bought one having never used on in the water.

I'll never put a jacket or regular back inflate on again unless forced to. This weekend, I changed from my normal single tank setup, to a doubles and it took all of 15 minutes. And no readujstment. I've worn my setup with just an underarmour top, and my 5mm and it works fine with no readjustment.

I would encourage ANYONE getting into diving to consider the system seriously. They are not just for cave divers or technical divers. It's a superior system period for nearly ANY circumstance. It also makes adding things like a knife, a light (Primary or backup), and other things dead simple because they all clip onto your D-Rings or slide onto the waistbelt.

One of the biggest things I hear against the system is the lack of quick adjustability and no quick clips. I don't know about you guys, but I tend not to need to get out of my gear in a big hurry after my dives. Nor do I loan my gear out so once it's adjusted, I need not do it again. Why do you need to constantly readjust your gear?

The other thing is pockets. There are RARE occasions where on a purely recreational dive, I'll want a pocket. I am going to glue one on to my wetsuit, and my drysuit will have pockets. How much stuff do you really need to carry underwater on a recrational dive? SMB and spool maybe? A slate? Tables?

Anyway, that's my thoughts. I recommend the system to anyone. I am nothing but a novice recreational diver, but the system works and works well. And I didn't waste a lot of money buying some other contraption only to want to get rid of it later.

[jholley309]

I'm one of the back-inflate BC heretics, so I'll toss in my coupla PSI worth...

I prefer some sort of back inflation device, since I was tired of trying to futz with jacket-style BC's to get them to fit right, only to have them either ride up in the water or crush my ribs when I inflated them on the surface. I initially looked at a BP/W (Dive Rite and OMS were the front runners due to LDS stock), but discovered the back-inflate BC's along the way, which (for me) were are better solution, and here's why (your milage may vary):

1. They're a good compromise for new and non-technical divers between the versatility and custom fit of a BP/W and the endless fussing with a jacket. My Sea Elite Tek 60 (Divers Supply house brand, roughly similar to the Zeagle Ranger) offers some of the trim advantages of a BP/W (ease of maintaining horizontal position), as well as the custom fit normally associated with backplate harnesses, while retaining some of the more useful features of jacket BCs (quick releases, integrated weight pockets). In practice, it's a BC harness with a "soft backplate" with an air cell attached to the back. The drawback is that I'm stuck with the locations of the D-rings, but there are enough loops sewn into various locations on the harness that I can offset that with judicious use of carabiners.

2. The harness works much like my favorite backpack harness, and puts much of the scuba unit weight on top of my hips out of the water while using the shoulder straps for stabilization. In the water, the whole thing stays put with no shifting, since I no longer need to leave any "slack" in the harness to avoid the surface rib crunch. Incidentally, with weight integration, having a harness that doesn't shift is important to maintaining trim throughout the dive; I tried a weight integrated jacket once, and the thing nearly drove me batty. It shifted enough that I could never really get the trim right: I was either pitching head over heels, rolling backwards, or rolling to one side or the other...let's not dwell. In the water, my back inflate BC is almost like wearing nothing at all, and I can effortlessly put myself in just about any position I've cared to try so far.

3. Because it was a store brand, it was considerably cheaper than a BP/W (this is where your mileage may vary the most), and was a compelling reason for me to go with the BC. They put together a killer package around it (I ended up getting a $300 reg essentially free) that I wouldn't have been able to get otherwise. On the other hand, if I had been shopping for only a BC or BP/W at the time, the price difference would not have been as important.

It all comes down to where you want to spend your money: fit and versatility, or initial ease of use. I was able to find a good compromise that'll work for me long enough for me to get my money's worth out of it.

Cheers!

Jim

Edited by jholley309, 07 November 2005 - 08:02 AM.