123 replies to this topic

[matts1w]

When teaching , I put all our OW students in jackets as we spend so much time at the surface listening to skil demos and such. The backinflates and BP/Ws tend to throw one forward , and is tough on many new divers. They often struggle against the BC kicking and skulling their arms. If one is struggling in OW class I would not put them in anything but jacket style BC.

I wear a Scubapro Knighthawk ( I work for a Scubapro dealer) which is a a backinflate BC. I love it, but sometimes I wear a Scubapro Glide in the pool when I dont feel like leaning back really hard at the surface.

Tha being said, when one is done with their open water cert. and they want a BC, I always point them to the Kinighthawk or Ladyhawk.

I wont wear a BP/W as I am certified DIR-IT.

[jholley309]

I wont wear a BP/W as I am certified DIR-IT.

Eh? What's that ya say? I'm familiar with the first three of that acronym; what's the "-IT" stand for?

Cheers!

Jim

P.S. Eesh! My Monday Typo count is increasing exponentially!

Edited by jholley309, 07 November 2005 - 08:50 AM.

[annasea]

When teaching , I put all our OW students in jackets as we spend so much time at the surface listening to skil demos and such.  The backinflates and BP/Ws tend to throw one forward , and is tough on many new divers.  They often struggle against the BC kicking and skulling their arms.  If one is struggling in OW class I would not put them in anything but jacket style BC.

Interesting point, Matt.

Is this learning in a BC a PADI preference?

Do most people learn to dive in a BC and then later switch to a BP/W? Or do non-PADI people in general learn to dive in a BP/W, and then just stick with it?

[matts1w]

There is no PADI standard or preference concerning what sort of BC one must wear in OW class.

A back inflate BC or a wing is great at keeping a diver horizontal in the water which is great when actually diving.

When one needs to be horizontal and buoyant at the surface the back infalte BCs push the diver to his/her face. For some it is not a big deal as all he/she has to do is lean back real hard and relax. When swimming on the surface I find I really have to throw myself up to get horizontal in the water. For the new diver lacking confidence and feeling apprehension, I think the jacket is the best way option- at least that is my experience.

[PerroneFord]

When teaching , I put all our OW students in jackets as we spend so much time at the surface listening to skil demos and such.  The backinflates and BP/Ws tend to throw one forward , and is tough on many new divers.  They often struggle against the BC kicking and skulling their arms.  If one is struggling in OW class I would not put them in anything but jacket style BC.

Interesting point, Matt.

Is this learning in a BC a PADI preference?

Do most people learn to dive in a BC and then later switch to a BP/W? Or do non-PADI people in general learn to dive in a BP/W, and then just stick with it?

I'm not going to get into the PADI rant today. No point in it. However, most students tend to learn in jackets because that is what is in the rental fleet of most dive shops. This is PADI or otherwise.

As for students struggling with BP/W configs on the surface, I call BS. I had 6 dives under my belt when I got my BP/W and didn't have any trouble at all. Only skill required was "lean back".

I also don't know what DIR-IT has to do with backplates and wings. Because BP/W's were around long before DIR was even a thought in anyone's mind.

[Diverbrian]

Let's all keep ranting to a minimum here. Looks good so far, but let's try to keep that way.

I have a quick release on my harness. Sometimes getting out of that blasted thing quickly is nice. Some the boats that I have been on aren't really doubles friendly. I wind-up having to get my tanks off of me in a pitching boat and positions that were shown in some contortionists manual. Throw in some mild (or heavy) seasickness and that buckle on my left shoulder is real nice. My dive buddy has seen me rush to get tanks off so that I could lean over the side and feed fish after a dive.

As to the lack of integrated weight systems... I hate weight belts. I do use a DUI weight harness for the increasingly rare situation that would have me diving single tanks. (Note: I do need to find time to work with classes again.)

I do know that our shop would teach in BP/W if the student brought them. But the rental gear that we use is primarily jacket BC's with a few Back-inflates. We really don't have the staff familar with weaving the webbing to set up a BP/W system comfortably for a customer either.

The classes are proof that one does not need a BP/W to dive in good trim and have good buoyancy control. The shop owner makes bouyancy control his pet peeve and does not much tolerate his students kicking up the bottom. You can put some non-ditchable weight into the back pockets on our jacket BC's and it does help to keep students horizontal in the water.

[matts1w]

I'm not going to get into the PADI rant today.  No point in it.  However, most students tend to learn in jackets because that is what is in the rental fleet of most dive shops.  This is PADI or otherwise.

As for students struggling with BP/W configs on the surface, I call BS.  I had 6 dives under my belt when I got my BP/W and didn't have any trouble at all.  Only skill required was "lean back".

I also don't know what DIR-IT has to do with backplates and wings.  Because BP/W's were around long before DIR was even a thought in anyone's mind.

PerroneFord-

Please note I said SOME new divers have a hard time getting themselves vertical in the water with a back inflate system. I am not making this up. SOME new divers are very uncomfortable with their face being pushed toward the water. They find it stressful, feelike they are being held facedown in the water, begin to fight the BC, and..well... we know all about task loading.

I have no doubt you have the strength to easily position yourself.

For some this is simply not the case.

Thats all I was saying.

Edited by matts1w, 07 November 2005 - 11:45 AM.

[Latitude Adjustment]

Matt a back inflate BC or wing will only push one forward if they have too much air in it or they are not properly trimmed. Most shops don't sell B/P's because of their mix and match nature, they would rather push one brand.

[matts1w]

Matt a back inflate BC or wing will only push one forward if they have too much air in it or they are not properly trimmed. Most shops don't sell B/P's because of their mix and match nature, they would rather push one brand.

Exactly.

Hence the struggling open water student- not in good trim and over-inflated.

[PerroneFord]

The backinflates and BP/Ws tend to throw one forward , and is tough on many new divers. They often struggle against the BC kicking and skulling their arms. If one is struggling in OW class I would not put them in anything but jacket style BC.

Your comment below seemed pretty inclusive to me. If you meant that some of your students struggled, I understand. The misnormer that BP/W tend to put divers on their faces is a prevailing one, and really not true. It IS true that if you inflate it like a balloon about to pop it will make you tippy. The BP/W does not float you high out of the water like a jacket bc or a life vest.

Anyway, we're getting off the point.

Annsea, I have been diving with BP/W divers that were very good in the water. I have also been diving with jacket divers that were excellent in the water. One a couple of weeks ago in a Zeagle Ranger, and Split fins that would have made a beginning cave diver jealous. Damn fine diver.

For me, diving is about what I do under the water. I purchased a system that I felt would be most helpful under the water, and for the type of diving I wish to do. How my BC works on the surface is of far less consequence to me. I tend not to buy stuff because "everyone else has it". I try to buy what *I* need. There is no fashion a BP/W. They are all business. They do their job well. There are no retractors, no pockets, no fancy colors, no 10 dozen plastic clips, etc. Plastic is replaced with metal. Soft cushiony stuff that only has purpose on the surface is not present. When it's adjusted right, you'll never feel it under the water. I had on twin steel tanks yesterday with an aluminum 40cuft stage bottle, and never felt any of it once I was below. In fact, my instructor said I was a bit too LIGHT and stuck a 2 pound softweight on me for my second dive.

Best of luck, and ask more questions if you have them. I'll try to answer from the newbie perspective, and let some of these more season folk handle the "years of experience" side.

[Walter]

First, a BP/wing IS a BC. A BC is a buoyancy compensator. They come in many different designs.

There are also hybrids - like the Scubapro ladyhawk and Zeagle Zena - that are basically jackets with a back-mounted bladder.

This style is not a hybrid, it actually predates the BP/wings. The old Atpack was a back inflation long before BP/Wings. I suspect the BP/Wings were derived from the earlier back inflate BCs.

I tried a jacket BC once, but the sleeves kept getting in the way, so I went back to my vest. IMHO, arms are no place for floatation.

The BP/Wings is an excellent design and may very well end up being exactly what you like best. OTOH, it may not be. Most BP/Wings are streamlined with no padding or cummerbunds. That's a good thing. Vest style BCs were once that way as well. In recent years, people have been sold on all the padding and today it's hard to find a vest without it. I can only think of one (Scubapro Classic Sport) and it's rarely in stock. In the last couple of years, I've noticed some BP/Wings with cummerbunds and padding. As this design becomes more main stream, people are starting to ruin the simplicity (as they did of most vests) of the design that makes the BP/Wings a good choice.

Regardless of what style BC you decide is best for you, you should keep in mind that padding and cummerbunds stop BCs from being streamlined. Such BCs are no fun in current and will screw up your air consumption on any dive. A right hand dump valve is a great addition to any BC. Look at positioning of the dump valves. There should be easy to reach dump valves at the high point of your BC when you're prone and when you're vertical. If they are not so located, the BC will trap air.

Contrary to popular believe, you can dive doubles without a BP/Wing. I was diving doubles before I ever heard of a BP/Wing and have not changed my configuration since.

Edited by Walter, 19 August 2006 - 06:46 AM.

[dennis mccarty]

Did somebody say bp/w??? (-;

Ok - here is my opinion -- I dive in a bp/w no matter what kind of diving I am doing -- tech diving in doubles -- dive mastering on the boat -- assisting a class -- a basic rec dive -- or shark diving in chain mail in 20' of water.

I my bp/w and have no use for any other setup. I can get myself happily in any other position and have been seen peacefully floating in many odd positions during decompression stops. So I am proof one can be in other than the horizontal position in the bp/w setup.

Once you get it dialed in - it is rock solid and becomes one on your body. There is no shifting that you get with the jacket BC. No riding up under your armpits you see on the surface with the jacket bc's. There is a simplicity in the harness setup that you also don't get with the jackets.

With the bp you get to center some of your weight right over your back taking weight off the hip area thus helping out your trim in a really nice way.

You can customize your bp in weight -- your bladder for lift -- things that are you are generally not able to do with a jacket.

You will never see me in a jacket except to keep warm after diving! (-;

I have had problems with leaks in the bladder on the scubapro knighthawk and now it is in the shop again. My next one will be either the oms system with wings or the dui. Im seting this one up for cold weather , drysuit with doubles. But all will have the air 2 system.
Dennis

[annasea]

A very wise bird suggested to me recently that I may be better off learning to dive in a backplate and wings set-up rather than the jacket-style BC I was using in the confined dives portion of my ill-fated PADI OW course.

I tried a jacket BC once, but the sleeves kept getting in the way, so I went back to my vest.  IMHO, arms are no place for floatation.

Oops! While I got the BP/W right, I guess I got the *jacket* part wrong.

What I initially meant was a *vest-style* BC.

Thx for the clarification, Walter.

[TraceMalin]

"Caetllonn, I am your father (James Earl Jones' voice accompanied by a scuba regulator). Join me.

Come to the dark side. Be one of the cool kids. Get a Halcyon backplate and Eclipse wing. Trust me on this. What are you buying scuba diving equipment for? To scuba dive, yes? Don't worry about what a wing will do or will not do for you when not diving. Why invest money in a buoyancy device that is substandard and not state of the art? Almost everyone complains about jacket BCDs, but very few complain about a backplate and wing system.

Once you go black, you will never go back. Here's why:

Jacket BCD

- fastex locks break easily
- usually has a loose fit
- tank position is often too low & diver can't reach valve (if you jump in with your air OFF you will want to reach the valve)
- no crotch strap for secure fit, attachment points, or scooter ability
- too many superfluous attachment points
- plastic attachment points can break
- more drag
- jacket lines are discontinued/replacement parts hard to find
- poor hose routing features
- frontal bulkiness
- gear hangs low when swimming increasing drag and entanglements
- often requires excess weight
- weight pouches slip/weight belts drop
- limited diving potential
- often floats up
- poorer weight distribution (trim problems)
- smaller pockets
- plastic pack can crack
- not modular

Backplate & wing

- stainless steel buckles and attachments won't break easily
- custom snug fit
- adjustable for proper tank position
- easily handles doubles, stages
- crotch strap for secure fit, attachment points, scootering
- custom attach points
- less drag
- easy to replace, borrow, change wing sizes
- attached weighting
- great hose routing
- no front bulkiness
- gear rides high and streamlined
- often no need for ditchable weight
- unlimited diving potential
- won't float up
- excellent weight distribution
- larger pockets/detachable
- stainless steel pack won't crack
- completely modular system

Come to the Dark Side, Caetllonn."

Trace

[normblitch]

"Caetllonn, I am your father (James Earl Jones' voice accompanied by a scuba regulator). Join me.

Come to the dark side. Be one of the cool kids. Get a Halcyon backplate and Eclipse wing. Trust me on this. What are you buying scuba diving equipment for? To scuba dive, yes? Don't worry about what a wing will do or will not do for you when not diving. Why invest money in a buoyancy device that is substandard and not state of the art? Almost everyone complains about jacket BCDs, but very few complain about a backplate and wing system.

Once you go black, you will never go back. Here's why:

Jacket BCD

- fastex locks break easily
- usually has a loose fit
- tank position is often too low & diver can't reach valve (if you jump in with your air OFF you will want to reach the valve)
- no crotch strap for secure fit, attachment points, or scooter ability
- too many superfluous attachment points
- plastic attachment points can break
- more drag
- jacket lines are discontinued/replacement parts hard to find
- poor hose routing features
- frontal bulkiness
- gear hangs low when swimming increasing drag and entanglements
- often requires excess weight
- weight pouches slip/weight belts drop
- limited diving potential
- often floats up
- poorer weight distribution (trim problems)
- smaller pockets
- plastic pack can crack
- not modular

Backplate & wing

- stainless steel buckles and attachments won't break easily
- custom snug fit
- adjustable for proper tank position
- easily handles doubles, stages
- crotch strap for secure fit, attachment points, scootering
- custom attach points
- less drag
- easy to replace, borrow, change wing sizes
- attached weighting
- great hose routing
- no front bulkiness
- gear rides high and streamlined
- often no need for ditchable weight
- unlimited diving potential
- won't float up
- excellent weight distribution
- larger pockets/detachable
- stainless steel pack won't crack
- completely modular system

Come to the Dark Side, Caetllonn."

Trace

AND, remember, you get a FREE pocket from me if you drink the Koolaid and go BP/W ....



nhb