55 replies to this topic

[Diverbrian]

One expression that I like to remember is that only I can breathe for me, only I can swim for me, and only I can dive for me.

I just finished training with the author of that saying. Anyone know who that is?

I know whose training manuals it appears in and who uses it. Whether he was the orginal author is beyond my knowlege.

[gcbryan]

I'll add that in reality there is no distinction between tec and rec. There are experienced, good divers, and then there are all others.

I have noticed that experienced divers who choose not to take tech classes due to the additional equipment/complexity/cost and overkill for many types of diving are often lectured to and underestimated by those with shiny new certificates and not so much experience Just by .02.

No tech classes are required to plan rock bottom, have adequate gas plans, execute a deco plan and to refrain from using pony bottles to extend bottom time. Educated, experienced, thinking divers are safe and all others are not.

[6Gill]

Hey if you take recreational and shorten it to rec and take technical and shorten then join the two new words as one and add diver to that you get rectcal diver.....hummmmm(its late thats my only excuse)

[Diverbrian]

I'll add that in reality there is no distinction between tec and rec. There are experienced, good divers, and then there are all others.

I have noticed that experienced divers who choose not to take tech classes due to the additional equipment/complexity/cost and overkill for many types of diving are often lectured to and underestimated by those with shiny new certificates and not so much experience Just by .02.

No tech classes are required to plan rock bottom, have adequate gas plans, execute a deco plan and to refrain from using pony bottles to extend bottom time. Educated, experienced, thinking divers are safe and all others are not.

Actually, I agree with the this. I am guilty of the overkill to some extent myself. Much of the "overkill" is keeping myself in trim for when I do actually do the real world dives beyond recreational limits. I like to take advantage of the times when I don't need to be as sharp to stay tuned for the times when my skills should "overlearned" (practiced to the point of being near instinct). Another very old saying comes to mind here... "Practice makes perfect."

But strictly speaking, there really doesn't have to be that much difference between recreational and technical diving. The level of diving where you are executing a light deco plan signifies an overlap in the terms that no two people need to agree on. But, I doubt that anyone would call the Cornelia B. Windiate (170 ft. to the deck and 190 ft. to the sand) a recreational dive. Likewise, I would seriously doubt that most of us would specify a dip in the local mudhole to just "get wet" in 30 ft. of water a technical dive.

So, there is a boundary somewhere. Where is it? That is what we are talking about.

[TekDiveGirl]

I have seen some really good definititons of "technical diving" and ones I agree with -- I have a bit more to throw in. I would say anything that adds to the complexity of the average dive outside the norm can make it technical in nature.

For example --

When doing our shark diving (in blue water 1500fsw+++ mind you) --- and having to work with a cage -- lines -- bait holders -- bait -- sharks -- and divers all while wearing a heavy chain mail suit adds to the complexity of a dive to 20fsw that you don't usually have. All these added variables in my opinion make it a technical operation.

[Latitude Adjustment]

I don't consider myself Tec but someplaces see the BP & W, long hose and pony and thats what you are called. In the distant past my Jersey wreck diving was tec but my equipment wasn't so it's the diver and not always the equipment.

[Capn Jack]

I'm curious at what point you're considered a tech diver?

is it depth? or equipment? or mixed gasses that determine this?

My two psi:

The agencies I believe have set definitions that are pretty firm about what "Rec" limits are - Breathing air or Nitrox (22% -> 40%), staying at or above 130' (YMCA is 100') and not going into deco.

So, my opinion is first of all, an easy answer, you are rec, or not. Note, if you aren't in the rec envelope, there are no SCUBA police to cite you, although as a professional, you would be in jeopardy with your agency if you were outside the parameters of the course you were conducting.

Everything else is kinda gray. If you're outside the rec parameters without training, equipment and a plan, you are risking violations of several laws - Dalton's, Boyle's and Henry's to name a few. Violations result in pain and possibly death.

When you want to dive outside of the rec envelope AND call yourself a tec diver is entirely up to you IMHO. Just remember, no matter what you call yourself, or what cards you carry, these labels are not respected by Neptune.

[intotheblue]

Technical diving involves more than merely going into minimal deco and breathing off you back gas till your computer clears. It takes dive p[lanning and the knowledge of what to do if something happens while you are under the overhead obligation. Divers who jump in with a pony bottle to extend their bottom time or as a back up are not technical divers...just unsafe (IMHO). A pony bottle does nothing for a dive...it only means the diver did not plan the dive correctly, The "...I carry it just in case of an emergency..." doesn't cut it because you have a buddy and the plan should include a rock bottom gas calculation that allows two divers to go from the bottom to the surface (or deco gas) in an emergency gas sharing situation. This is basic dive planning for the recreational range...as you progress the planning remains the same but the complexity increases. Just my .02

My position is that exactly, that some people actually should be considering their dives technical diving and be planning it accordingly instead of just "winging it" with last minute decisions based on what their computer tells them at any given minute. The advent of the dive computer has taken "planning" out of most people's recreational diving practices. It may seem to some only semantics, but people bouncing into deco or carrying their pony bottle to extend their bottom time without fully understanding the "hot water" they could be getting themselves into is beyond the scope of what "recreational" diving should be. Maybe it should be considered "Rec-tec"???

An acquaintence of mine used to boast of diving technical dives but was without the proper training and was using home made equipment. Incidentally he was not one of technical diving's pioneers... just cheap. When confronted by several of his peers about the pile of doo-doo he could get himself into, he backtracked saying that he just did a little "light deco" now and then. Good for him... but what about people he dives with?

Do you (certified divers in general) PLAN to do deco? Do you plan your deco in advance if you plan to go into deco? Is technical diving's club too exclusive to include people that fall beyond "recreational" diving, but not within the more rigorous definition of "technical" diving. If so, does this "exclusivity" actually discourage "tech diver wannabe's" from properly approaching certain dive practices they participate in? Many people "bouncing into deco" are diving deep and long enough that they should be considering their dives technical dives and should be using other gases and employing technical diving practices and protocols. But... I am on a soap box here, and throwing out this to stimulate thought and consideration of the ramifications of diving beyond recreational standards for depth and time.

We live in a "dare-devil mentality" society... each generation seemingly considering itself more bullet-proof. Technology doesn't necessarily make us safer while diving. In fact, it sometimes makes us more at risk as we feel we have all the technology to back us up. Technology (incorrectly) applied without wisdom is false security, IMHO. I've seen divers die... recreational divers and technical divers... and I don't like it. These three people should still be alive... Even proper training won't keep you alive if you don't practice what you learn.

[intotheblue]

I have seen some really good definititons of "technical diving" and ones I agree with -- I have a bit more to throw in. I would say anything that adds to the complexity of the average dive outside the norm can make it technical in nature.

For example --

When doing our shark diving (in blue water 1500fsw+++ mind you) --- and having to work with a cage -- lines -- bait holders -- bait -- sharks -- and divers all while wearing a heavy chain mail suit adds to the complexity of a dive to 20fsw that you don't usually have. All these added variables in my opinion make it a technical operation.

Hey TekDiveGirl, one of our fellow workers is heading to California later this year for shark diving. What operation are you with? I didn't know she had so much interest in diving, or experience for that matter.
Any info you pass on is appreciated. Maybe would even be a good thread... if there isn't a similar one already!

ITB...

[seafox]

I'm curious at what point you're considered a tech diver?

is it depth? or equipment? or mixed gasses that determine this?

Generally speaking :
Not over 130ft
No deco
No penetration

IMH it doesn't matter "how much" penetration, nor the gas you are breathing, meaning a 110ft mix gas dive within NDL limits is a rec dive, and a cavern penetration (or ice dive) no matter how far, is a tech dive.
It also doesn't matter what "gear" you're using.
Why would diving a wing, backplate, doubles and a 7ft long hose vs. a jacket determine the "classification" of the exact same dive?

Text book definition:
Technical diving is a form of SCUBA diving that exceeds the scope of recreational diving. Technical divers require advanced training, extensive experience, and specialized equipment.
Depth
Technical dives may be defined as being to depths deeper than 100 feet / 30 meters. This definition is derived from the fact that breathing regular air while experiencing pressures greater than those at 100 feet or deeper causes a progressively increasing amount of impairment due to nitrogen narcosis. This increases the level of risk and training required. This is a fairly conservative definition of technical diving.
Stops
Technical dives may alternatively be defined as dives with durations long enough to require mandatory decompression stops, which may optionally be performed using enriched oxygen breathing gas mixtures such as nitrox or pure oxygen. This definition is derived from the fact that metabolically inert gases, such as nitrogen and helium, in the diver's breathing gas are absorbed into body tissues when breathed under high pressure. These dissolved gases must be allowed to release gradually from body tissues to prevent decompression sickness or the bends. This form of diving implies a much larger reliance on redundancy and training since it is no longer physiologically safe to make a direct ascent to the surface in the case of any problems underwater.
Mixes
Technical dives may also be defined as being to depths requiring the use of breathing gas mixtures other than air such as trimix, heliox, and heliair. This definition is derived from the fact that breathing a mixture with the same oxygen concentration as is found in air (roughly 21%) at depths greater than 180 feet / 55 meters results in a very rapidly increasing risk of severe symptoms of oxygen toxicity. These symptoms can include visual and auditory hallucinations, loss of muscle control, full body seizures, and loss of consciousness. Increasing depth also causes air to become narcotic and results in impairing divers ability to react or think clearly (see Nitrogen narcosis). By adding helium to the breathing mix divers can reduce the narcosis. They can also lower the level of oxygen in the mix to reduce the danger of oxygen toxicity. Once the oxygen is reduced below 16% the mix is known as a hypoxic mix as it doesn't contain enough oxygen to be used safely at the surface.
Ability to ascend
Technical dives often refer to dives with a ‘virtual’ ceiling prohibiting a direct ascent to the surface: it can either be a mandatory stop (decompression obligation) or a physical ceiling:
• Cave diving - diving into a cave system.
• Deep diving - diving into greater depths.
• Ice diving - diving under ice.
• Wreck diving - diving inside a shipwreck.
Equipment
Technical divers may also use various forms of less common diving equipment to accomplish their goals. Typically technical dives involve significantly longer durations than average recreational scuba dives. Technical divers therefore increase their supply of available breathing gas by either connecting multiple high capacity diving cylinders and/or by using a rebreather. The technical diver may also carry additional cylinders, known as stage and or deco bottles, to ensure adequate breathing gas supply for decompression with a reserve for bail out in case of failure of their primary breathing gas.
Training
Technical diving requires specialized equipment, training and a mature attitude. Divers interested in technical diving should seek training and dive within their personal limits.

Beware, Complacency Kills! and that applies to both "rec" and "tec".

[Dive_Girl]

When doing our shark diving (in blue water 1500fsw+++ mind you) --- and having to work with a cage -- lines -- bait holders -- bait -- sharks -- and divers all while wearing a heavy chain mail suit adds to the complexity of a dive to 20fsw that you don't usually have. All these added variables in my opinion make it a technical operation.

Good point!

[intotheblue]

my understanding of stage bottles is you use them to carry travel gas or deco gas, but you breathe on the bottom from your back gas

is this correct?

This really depends on your application. One variation we have done while cave diving is to breathe stages going in and out (travel) and save the back gas for emergencies. Deco gas dropped at appropriate depths as needed. Specifics depend on the system and its variations in depth. Some require changes in depth during penetration that create "sawtooth" profiles. Stages were dropped as they reached the appropriate pressure, then picked up and used on the way out. You can breathe the stage lower (proportionally than you would your back-gas) under this scenario, and you have your (and buddy's) back gas if one of you have to give your buddy your stage due to the loss of one. This may seem a simplification of the process, but it's not really that complex to do. Just takes practice with stages, knowing the flow of the system and knowing when to drop. This procedure assumes you will not be worrying about applying the old Seals and Crofts song... " we may never pass this way again"... You intend to return to use your stages on the way out.

Incidentally, in "sidemount"... you don't have "backgas".

[Dennis]

I pretty much agree with Walter that the term Technical Diver is a poor term at best. There are so many different types of diving that take you out of the realm of recreational diving that one term just doesn't cut it.

You all have named the different types of diving that should be described and referred to separately.

For instance, I may be very skilled at wreck penetration and decompression dives in order to dive and penetrate wrecks. However, I may decide that cave diving is just too risky for me and I would never attempt true cave diving because of those risks. I would be a Wreck Diver, but not a Cave Diver. Two types of diving currently grouped under Technical Diving, but although similar, require some different skill sets.

Lumping all of the different types of diving that isn't recreational diving into one term called Technical Diving is just poor terminology.

Edited by Dennis, 12 April 2006 - 02:19 PM.

[seafox]

I pretty much agree with Walter that the term Technical Diver is a poor term at best. There are so many different types of diving that take you out of the realm of recreational diving that one term just doesn't cut it.

You all have named the different types of diving that should be described and referred to separately.

For instance, I may be very skilled at wreck penetration and decompression dives in order to dive and penetrate wrecks. However, I may decide that cave diving is just too risky for me and I would never attempt true cave diving because of those risks. I would be a Wreck Diver, but not a Cave Diver. Two types of diving currently grouped under Technical Diving, but although similar, require some different skill sets.

Lumping all of the different types of diving that isn't recreational diving into one term called Technical Diving is just poor terminology.

Can't agree with your statement Dennis.
If you do wreck penetration and decompression dives you'd better have learned and practice "technical" skills.
You don't learn those skills from recreational diving.
You can't learn those skills off the internet.
Cave diving is not for every technical diver, but you better beleive that you need
"technical" skills and cave diving skills to venture into caves.
The interpretation and perception may leave room for improvement.
IMO the terminilogy however, is correct.

[VADiver]

Seafox, I would argue that the skills need for technical diving are not fundamentally different from those making any diver a good diver--proper trim, buoyancy control, situational awareness, team integrity, etc...
These skill are not just applicable to technical dives, but to all dives.

Training is the integral part to safe diving--rigorous training, education and practice is the foundation from which to build upon. The sad fact is that many recreational divers don't go out for training dives; instead they try to fine tune their skills on an actual dive, oblivious to the fine line they are skirting. I know a dive team who decided to extend their dive and enter deco on the fly at 125'. Their reasoning was that they had the extra gas and other divers were doing deco so it was OK.