55 replies to this topic

[BradfordNC]

Seafox, I would argue that the skills need for technical diving are not fundamentally different from those making any diver a good diver--proper trim, buoyancy control, situational awareness, team integrity, etc...
These skill are not just applicable to technical dives, but to all dives.

if your diving solo, do you have to worry about team integrity?

[seafox]

Seafox, I would argue that the skills need for technical diving are not fundamentally different from those making any diver a good diver--proper trim, buoyancy control, situational awareness, team integrity, etc...
These skills are not just applicable to technical dives, but to all dives.

Training is the integral part to safe diving--rigorous training, education and practice is the foundation from which to build upon. The sad fact is that many recreational divers don't go out for training dives; instead they try to fine tune their skills on an actual dive, oblivious to the fine line they are skirting. I know a dive team who decided to extend their dive and enter deco on the fly at 125'. Their reasoning was that they had the extra gas and other divers were doing deco so it was OK.

VADiver, I agree that some of the basic skills you mention are fundamentally the same for rec and tec.
However, many others skills, and that's where the differences are important, are taught at the "technical" level.
I know very few rec divers that understand "awareness", (self, environment, team), the way you and I do, and have the skills to plan and complete a complex decompression, properly blow a bag, safely perform a blue water deco ascent, come to aid of a toxed diver and so on.
Those skills are not required of a rec divers but must be performed flawlessly by a tec diver.
As you are well aware, that requires many hours of very specific and pointed training. That's the point.
I am not suggesting that tec is better than rec.
One is not better than the other, but although they may look the same, they are different!
Hey, In the end what ever works works!
However, I am suggesting that it's not the same and technical diving is technical!

[finley]

Seafox, I would argue that the skills need for technical diving are not fundamentally different from those making any diver a good diver--proper trim, buoyancy control, situational awareness, team integrity, etc...
These skills are not just applicable to technical dives, but to all dives.

Training is the integral part to safe diving--rigorous training, education and practice is the foundation from which to build upon. The sad fact is that many recreational divers don't go out for training dives; instead they try to fine tune their skills on an actual dive, oblivious to the fine line they are skirting. I know a dive team who decided to extend their dive and enter deco on the fly at 125'. Their reasoning was that they had the extra gas and other divers were doing deco so it was OK.

VADiver, I agree that some of the basic skills you mention are fundamentally the same for rec and tec.
However, many others skills, and that's where the differences are important, are taught at the "technical" level.
I know very few rec divers that understand "awareness", (self, environment, team), the way you and I do, and have the skills to plan and complete a complex decompression, properly blow a bag, safely perform a blue water deco ascent, come to aid of a toxed diver and so on.
Those skills are not required of a rec divers but must be performed flawlessly by a tec diver.
As you are well aware, that requires many hours of very specific and pointed training. That's the point.
I am not suggesting that tec is better than rec.
One is not better than the other, but although they may look the same, they are different!
Hey, In the end what ever works works!
However, I am suggesting that it's not the same and technical diving is technical!

Im not even sure I understand the vocabulary

[seafox]

Seafox, I would argue that the skills need for technical diving are not fundamentally different from those making any diver a good diver--proper trim, buoyancy control, situational awareness, team integrity, etc...
These skill are not just applicable to technical dives, but to all dives.

if your diving solo, do you have to worry about team integrity?

Hey BradfordNC, now solo diving is an interesting and I would bet a rather controversial topic.
Perhaps you should start another thread

[seafox]

Im not even sure I understand the vocabulary

Hi Finley, please accept my apologies. I get passionnate about certain subjects.
I will do my best to hold back!
Take care,

[Diverbrian]

Seafox, I would argue that the skills need for technical diving are not fundamentally different from those making any diver a good diver--proper trim, buoyancy control, situational awareness, team integrity, etc...
These skills are not just applicable to technical dives, but to all dives.

Training is the integral part to safe diving--rigorous training, education and practice is the foundation from which to build upon. The sad fact is that many recreational divers don't go out for training dives; instead they try to fine tune their skills on an actual dive, oblivious to the fine line they are skirting. I know a dive team who decided to extend their dive and enter deco on the fly at 125'. Their reasoning was that they had the extra gas and other divers were doing deco so it was OK.

VADiver, I agree that some of the basic skills you mention are fundamentally the same for rec and tec.
However, many others skills, and that's where the differences are important, are taught at the "technical" level.
I know very few rec divers that understand "awareness", (self, environment, team), the way you and I do, and have the skills to plan and complete a complex decompression, properly blow a bag, safely perform a blue water deco ascent, come to aid of a toxed diver and so on.
Those skills are not required of a rec divers but must be performed flawlessly by a tec diver.
As you are well aware, that requires many hours of very specific and pointed training. That's the point.
I am not suggesting that tec is better than rec.
One is not better than the other, but although they may look the same, they are different!
Hey, In the end what ever works works!
However, I am suggesting that it's not the same and technical diving is technical!

Im not even sure I understand the vocabulary

Ma'am, we don't have blue water (more like brown or green water up here) deco ascents where I live. But if it helps, we are talking about an free ascent with decompression obligations in the middle of a large body of water. Several stops had better be observed or the next stop after the surface is likely to be the recompression chamber.

"Toxed diver" is referring to a diver suffering from Central Nervous System Oxygen toxicity. They are likely to be convulsing and difficult to deal with. They will still need to decompress and once their convulsion gets done they are likely to be quite weak if they haven't drowned already from spitting out their regulator.

"Blowing a bag" refers to sending a lift bag/inflatable marker buoy up on a line (normally a reel or finger spool) to mark a dive team's position while performing their decompression stops so that that dive boat can locate them during this time. I personally am less experienced than some, but have had to do this unplanned once already when I got away from the line looking for a shipwreck that I was supposed to mark so that we could place a mooring buoy on it. The point of that is that "blowing a bag" is not an uncommon occurance in this kind of diving. It is something that I practice quite a bit for that reason.

Ask any of us where you have questions with our jargon and we will happily answer them (and debate each other at times in doing so). Divers who are trained to dive in overhead environments (virtual and hard) tend to be quite passionate about diving and learning more about it. They also tend to trade off their lessons learned so that others don't have the same issues later.

[Diverbrian]

Im not even sure I understand the vocabulary

Hi Finley, please accept my apologies. I get passionnate about certain subjects.
I will do my best to hold back!
Take care,

This is a forum about technical diving. We are allowed to get passionate about these subjects and don't hold back. If we have any questions come up, we can all have great fun in answering them.

BTW, I did see your comment about solo diving in this realm. I also believe in something at this level that was presented to me in my training. I was taught that while team diving is best, a good check of one's mental state prior to a dive is that if you aren't mentally prepared to do a dive solo, you shouldn't be doing it.

[Capn Jack]

Speaking of solo diving, are solo divers "technical divers"?

[Dennis]

Can't agree with your statement Dennis.
If you do wreck penetration and decompression dives you'd better have learned and practice "technical" skills.
You don't learn those skills from recreational diving.
You can't learn those skills off the internet.
Cave diving is not for every technical diver, but you better beleive that you need
"technical" skills and cave diving skills to venture into caves.
The interpretation and perception may leave room for improvement.
IMO the terminilogy however, is correct.

I think you missed my point. Wreck Penetration takes special skills that aren't learned during recreational training. Cave diving takes skills that aren't learned during recreational training. Not too long ago, Nitrox was considered to be Technical Diving. Today, it is a very large part of recreational diving and I would argue that it is no longer "technical diving". Trimix is currently considered "technical diving". In a few years from now, will it be common place and no longer considered "technical diving"? My point is that if you are a cave diver, you are a cave diver, if you are a wrek diver, you are a wreck diver, etc., etc. The term technical diver is a poor term because too many different types of diving are dumped into this one name for a wide diversity of types of diving that requires very different skills.

[Capn Jack]

The term technical diver is a poor term because too many different types of diving are dumped into this one name for a wide diversity of types of diving that requires very different skills.

Dennis - I think you nailed the problem, semantics. Earlier I stated you know when you are Rec, and when you are not.

What is needed is specificity in what you are ready and able to do. I think Technical is generic term that covers a wide range of complex, highly specialized diving. Basically, all of these share a common feature that you are not able to surface at will, thus you must be ready for any situation and that means being able to solve it without surfacing.

I think at the core there is a minimum set of training and equipment needed to give you those basic abilities.

So, I would propose that if you are trained and equipped to dive outside rec limits, then you are a tec diver. That doesn't mean necessarily you are a cave, or trimix, or wreck penetrating diver. Each of those specialties requires additional skills, and sometimes additional equipment.

For what it's worth, we probably need a term for those diving outside rec limits without the proper training and equipment.

[Diverbrian]

The term technical diver is a poor term because too many different types of diving are dumped into this one name for a wide diversity of types of diving that requires very different skills.

Dennis - I think you nailed the problem, semantics. Earlier I stated you know when you are Rec, and when you are not.

What is needed is specificity in what you are ready and able to do. I think Technical is generic term that covers a wide range of complex, highly specialized diving. Basically, all of these share a common feature that you are not able to surface at will, thus you must be ready for any situation and that means being able to solve it without surfacing.

I think at the core there is a minimum set of training and equipment needed to give you those basic abilities.

So, I would propose that if you are trained and equipped to dive outside rec limits, then you are a tec diver. That doesn't mean necessarily you are a cave, or trimix, or wreck penetrating diver. Each of those specialties requires additional skills, and sometimes additional equipment.

For what it's worth, we probably need a term for those diving outside rec limits without the proper training and equipment.

That is a good way to look at it. Until we do open water and advanced open water courses with the intent that you have multiple first stages of some sort and ability to deploy decompression/stage bottles with little or no effort (and this is at a minimum), there will be a division of diving away from "recreational" diving. The two items that I mentioned tend to be common to most forms of "technical" diving, BTW.

The other items, like cave and wreck penetration, like trimix and extended deco are all subsets of that division of divers.

And, I don't necessarily believe that solo diving fits into most of the things mentioned here as "technical". Many people solo dive in thirty of water and no intention of an overhead. Direct ascent to the surface is a viable option for them and there is no need for them to solve all of their problems underwater.

[Dennis]

Semantics it may be, but the term doesn't tell me much. When I learned how to dive, there was no such thing as a "technical diver", nitrox was in the infant stages, and DIR wasn't even a glimmer. You were a recreational diver or you were one of the other divers that dived caves, wrecks, etc., etc. When someone tells me they are a technical diver, it really doesn't mean much until they tell me what kind of diving they really do.

I am basically a recreational diver, however, I have dived wrecks (penetrated some) and some caverns. I don't do deep dark holes and personally like diving reefs the best. It's not because I can't learn the other types of diving, I just don't think the risks justify the rewards.

[VADiver]

At least we all agree on training!

Brad, as for solo diving I'd rathere be in a team and maintain team integrity. Penettrating a wreck can get tricky, but if something happens your buddy is there to help out. Each diver should be self sufficient; however, team integrity is vital to a successful dive when Murphy pops up. But thats only my opinion, and we know about them.

(Brad, glad to see your back brother. You in for 4th?)

[intotheblue]

At least we all agree on training!

Brad, as for solo diving I'd rathere be in a team and maintain team integrity. Penettrating a wreck can get tricky, but if something happens your buddy is there to help out. Each diver should be self sufficient; however, team integrity is vital to a successful dive when Murphy pops up. But thats only my opinion, and we know about them.

(Brad, glad to see your back brother. You in for 4th?)

Hmmmm, sometimes having a buddy runs up the chances of Murphy taggin' along. Twice as much gear to have a failure, and two times the opportunity to make a bone headed move! Anyone SOLO diving would be wise to learn "technical" diving practices... and then incoporate them into their plan. Now... if I have the right buddy, I would choose the buddy!

Don't worry, I'm not a great proponent of SOLO diving... I also have no problem with it for the right diver in the right situation. There's alot to be considered for that type of diving... and has probably been covered in other past threads.

Oh... Happy Easter/Resurrection Day!

Edited by intotheblue, 13 April 2006 - 05:56 PM.

[seafox]

I agree! With proper training and good mental attitude, solo diving can be enjoyable and safe.
Here are my thoughts on "solo diving" and the course:

Solo diving you say?

After all, I teach team-based diving protocols... but then I looked over the course outline and realized that it really offers some great benefits and values.
Note that the Solo Diver specialty course, is an SDI (recreational division of TDI) offering,
and is generally promoted and encouraged -- for recreational-level divers.
However, I think it should be called: “Self-Sufficient Diver".
The solo diver program teaches experienced recreational divers how to safely dive independently and in spite of the course name,
introduces many of the skills that go towards making a strong self-sufficient diver -- a necessity for all team members.
To be self sufficient divers must know what to do to safely handle several emergency-type situations.
They have to be able to recognize personal limits and work around them.
And they must have self-rescue skills in water and on the surface.
Course is designed to teach self-reliance, self-rescue and basic skills that I believe are essential pre-requisites for team-oriented diving.
As a matter of fact, the successful completion of this course is a prerequisite for participation in my technical programs,
which will give you some idea of the value I feel this course has.
I usually start the class with the following quotation:

"WHATEVER happens to you when you willingly go underwater is COMPLETELY and ENTIRELY your own responsibility!
If you cannot accept this responsibility, stay out of the water!" RICHARD PYLE

Pool's open!