35 replies to this topic

[Capn Jack]

This may be old news to some, but I just read in my quarterly PADI Training bulletin that Nitrox certification no longer requires any dives.

[PerroneFord]

Is this a good thing? Not being sarcastic, just wondering what people think. Given the potential pitfalls of nitrox, would it be prudent to observe the student's ability to maintain themselves above the floor? And to analyze and calculate MOD, EAD, and especially END?

[VADiver]

Thats about par for PADI and the mainstrean dive agencies...why bother teaching to a higher level when we can teach to a lower standard and make more money.

[konascubagirl]

Thats about par for PADI and the mainstrean dive agencies...why bother teaching to a higher level when we can teach to a lower standard and make more money.

Wow! Making money is a bad thing? Get a grip. If it wasn't for those lousy, money-grubbing "mainstream" diving agencies the oceans would be full of "I only wear black" divers who don't actually appear to have fun while diving... they are too busy stroking egos, comparing certs, and making fun of us clueless divers.

99.9% of Nitrox training is book work anyway. What exactly do you think the dives do? You can certainly do the math for getting your MOD without making the dive. As for Perrone's concern, hello, if you are a moron diver you will drop below the MOD for regular air, Nitrox, etc anyway. The Nitrox won't make you be an idiot all by itself.

I can't believe I am getting sucked into yet another PADI-bashing post!

KSG

[6Gill]

99.9% of Nitrox training is book work anyway. What exactly do you think the dives do? You can certainly do the math for getting your MOD without making the dive. As for Perrone's concern, hello, if you are a moron diver you will drop below the MOD for regular air, Nitrox, etc anyway. The Nitrox won't make you be an idiot all by itself.


KSG

This pretty much sums it up...nitox is learning to dive using another table,think of air as 21% nitox.The only thing differernt from using air tables is learning to analyz the mix.In this day and age with nitox so common learning to analyz all tanks should be taught at OW.There have been several case were air tanks contained more than 21%.
At one time nitox was considered technical diving and used in the relms of deco it still is.To me diving nitox alone doesn't make the dive technical.

[gcbryan]

Since there are no dive skills taught in the Nitrox course it makes sense to not require dives. This doesn't mean that you can't go on a dive with your instructor and use Nitrox sometime, it just isn't required.

Some people may be landlocked and want to take the class before going on vacation. Others may only have boat diving available locally which would double the cost of the class.

My Nitrox class was SDI and no dives were required but since we have plenty of shore diving opportunites around here my instructor and I did a couple of dives anyway but we didn't have to.

Choice is always a good thing. Useless rules are never a good thing.

[matts1w]

It amazes me that PADI is ofen bashed as the organization with the lowest standards, then is praised in this thread for lowering it's standards.

I thought the dives made sense as in my class we would....

1. Analyize the mix in both tanks.
2. Plan dive one and two.

Move to boat so we do all this at sea.

3. Verify dive profile on RDP using EADs and O2P.P.
4. Set computer
5. Dive
6. Switch to correct bottle.
7. Review dive two
8. Verify dive profile on RDP using EADs and O2P.P.
9. Set computer
10. Dive

Back on land

11. Debrief

Granted we can do all this in the shop and do virtual dives, but it is different on a boat with swells,other people, the excitment of the dive, etc...

By the way, no one at my shop is making more money. We used to charge $145 for the nitrox course which included two dives. The two dives costs us $65. Guess how much the course costs now? That's right- $80.

[Lubold8431]

SSI Nitrox course never required dives, they were optional. As a SSI Instructor, I never did dives when teaching a Nitrox course. I dont think that the dives made any discernible difference in the outcome of the students as divers. Classroom is where the emphasis is with Nitrox.

[Capn Jack]

Thanks to all for the feedback. One point I did not post earlier was the dives are still recommended, just not required. The predive simulation is now required.

I started this topic simply to let everyone know about the change. I assumed (as confirmed by matts1w) that the price of certification would go down.

For the typical SD member, I also thought it represented an opportunity to more readily obtain a nitrox cert should they want one prior to a trip like the upcoming Flower Gardens one (I am so envious about that group, just bad timing for me). For example, the Dallas divers are nitrox challenged in that most shops don't pump it. Getting a cert usually means traveling. For example, our LDS was teaching the class, then completing it on a trip.

In my small circle, EANx checkout dives were always viewed as not particularly meaningful. There are no new in-water skills to teach. Buoyancy / depth control, judgement and adherance to plan are core skills every diver needs. The personal analysis, calculation of ndl, MOD & EAD, strict adherance to process of tank identification at each step and the tracking of O2 exposure were the key points of the actual dive.

I agree that if you can't hold your planned depth, you are putting yourself at risk. If you have taken the course, you are aware of pulmonary and CNS toxicity risks. Two dives demonstrating you won't break your MOD will not remove the bad judgement divers from the community.

[PerroneFord]

I didn't mean to start an argument or do PADI bashing (or get bashed for being a "diver in black").

When I was looking for Nitrox classes last fall, I went through this same thing. The two shops near me are PADI and SSI. The SSI offered the options of diving or no diving. I really went back and forth on it, and could see benefits or pitfalls.

I don't know about the avid divers here, but a lot of people locally that I dive with are kinda new divers, and I have seen very little from them in terms of dive planning. In my local area, all nitrox is partial pressure. So it's possible to get a pretty hot mix. In fact, if you aren't careful, you can get a mix too hot for some of the sites. Blue Grotto goes to 100, and you can get near that in Morrison. If someone decides to get a full 40%, they can push the envelope pretty hard.

I am sure this could be covered in class, but if others are anything like me, when you get onsite, and are chatting with friends, it's easy to take your eye off the ball so to speak and not really pay attention. Doing the mix check pre-dive also shows that the mix may change slightly over time. Especially in PP fills where air is used to top off and the mix is not done hard, the ppO2 may creep up.

Maybe I think about this stuff too much. I was just hoping to hear some opinions without all the bashing and bad vibes...

[finGrabber]

I didn't mean to start an argument or do PADI bashing (or get bashed for being a "diver in black").

When I was looking for Nitrox classes last fall, I went through this same thing. The two shops near me are PADI and SSI. The SSI offered the options of diving or no diving. I really went back and forth on it, and could see benefits or pitfalls.

I don't know about the avid divers here, but a lot of people locally that I dive with are kinda new divers, and I have seen very little from them in terms of dive planning. In my local area, all nitrox is partial pressure. So it's possible to get a pretty hot mix. In fact, if you aren't careful, you can get a mix too hot for some of the sites. Blue Grotto goes to 100, and you can get near that in Morrison. If someone decides to get a full 40%, they can push the envelope pretty hard.

I am sure this could be covered in class, but if others are anything like me, when you get onsite, and are chatting with friends, it's easy to take your eye off the ball so to speak and not really pay attention. Doing the mix check pre-dive also shows that the mix may change slightly over time. Especially in PP fills where air is used to top off and the mix is not done hard, the ppO2 may creep up.

Maybe I think about this stuff too much. I was just hoping to hear some opinions without all the bashing and bad vibes...

The dives themselves don't teach you anything new; you learn to plan your dives and how to analyze your mix in class; I learned to let the tanks cool off before analyzing them so you don't get a false reading

and I think PADI was either one of or the last dive agency to eliminate the dives from their Nitrox cert so please - No Agency Bashing!

[Diverbrian]

Our shop teaches nitrox with the OW course. Imagine doing a tank analysis and figuring your MOD along with your OW course. It makes the discussions of partial pressures more valid as well. The shop prebanks EAN36, which has an MOD (at a 1.4 PO2) of slightly above 100 ft. Since most students can see themselves reaching 100 ft. one day, it makes that discussion seem more germane to them. The one dive site that we use has a "deep end" that gets to 120 ft. The last two dives of the OW course are done on EAN36 and the instructors/staff are using EAN36 through the pool and OW dives.

Having said that, if an already certified diver comes in to take the nitrox course, our instructors do not dive with them. They simply teach the class. Our instructors are tied up enough teaching Stress and Rescue, AOW, and OW to not want to tie them up with a couple of nitrox dives for divers who should know how to dive.

Now, a word about the perceived agency bashing....

We have divers of all stripes on this board. Singling a training agency that you feel is bad can be read as disrespectful to other representatives of that agency on this board.

I have seen good and bad instruction stories from all agencies. I have heard horror stories about all agencies including the "upper level" technical agencies. If you have a good instructor and you are a good student, you will get great instruction. If you and the instructor are not a good match, you will likely get "no-so-good" instruction. This is not necessarily a function of the training agency.

This also not a forum for "my training agency can beat up your training agency". Please safe that for somewhere else.

Please refrain from agency bashing here. We are not here for that purpose and it will be dealt with if it happens.

[VADiver]

Didn't mean to bash PADI, just point out what I believe IMO is a short fall in training. I didn't mention one agency being better than another...just that the main stream agencies tend to try and get a large number of divers certified by lowering standards or glossing over important information. If this is not about money, what is it about?

When I went through NITROX I remember my instructor telling us "...stay above 130' and you'll be fine.." We addressed the issue of a O2 toxicity but never practiced what to do if a buddy experianced an O@ tox hit at depth. The rescue of an O2 toxing diver should be demonstrated durring NITROX training but is is not. These are the students who are new to the idea of PPO and NITROX and are more likely to make a mistake.

I don't care what agency anyone gets certified with as long as they come out a competent and safe diver. Unfourtunately too many divers become certified with just enough infiormation to be a danger to themselves and others.

I believe divers should be trained to a higher standard, not just a basic level. I'm sorry if my opinion caused KSG or anyone to get "sucked into a PADI bashing post,"--that was not my intention. If you want we can discuss the various training agencies where we can constructively evaluate each one. But then again too many emotions will come into play.

V

[gcbryan]

Bad divers are bad divers regardless of how they were certified and the same holds true for good divers.

Everyone posting considers themselves to be a good diver and yet most divers initially learned to dive through the mainstream agencies.

It's a little hypocritical to believe that one is a good diver because of some extraordinary abilities but everyone one else coming through the same mainstream agencies are not good divers.

It has to do with the diver and not with the agency. There are many people posting on all scuba boards who are lecturing about things that they have no experience with other than repeating what was in their dive training book.

Most divers that anyone observes that seem to be poorly trained divers are usually in fact just divers who don't dive much.

[PerroneFord]

Most divers that anyone observes that seem to be poorly trained divers are usually in fact just divers who don't dive much.

You struck on something here that I want to ask about.

As a coach (soccer), I stress to my players that in order to have proficiency, it is PARAMOUNT to practice. To that end, I try to get in a pool session or two a week to work on my skills. Just in an unpressured, shallow environment. I used to have to work in the deep end, but now can work in 3-4ft.

I suspect most people here consider themselves "good divers", and I've had the good fortune to dive with a few SD members, and they were indeed good divers. So I wonder, how many divers here actually practice their skills regularly. Whether it's jumping in the pool, or working on things at your deco stops, or whatever.

Is this something that is simply not done? Or do people do it and just not mention it here?