35 replies to this topic

[annasea]

I'd like to throw a couple of coppers into the pot if I may...

Perrone,

If you're in a pool practicing your skills where I think you are, I reckon you've got someone very skilled at diving and teaching checking up on you periodically to make sure you're doing things correctly. There's not much point practicing if you're not practicing properly.

Case in point: I've been busy at the pool practicing the dreaded front crawl. I was *sort of* getting better but not by much. As my progress was drearily slow, I was starting to get discouraged.

Yesterday, I had a private lesson with a new instructor. This man was amazing!! I made major progress in just a half hour! I went today to my pool to practice and boy, what a difference! I still can't swim a full lap of the front crawl but now I can swim one 25M length with no problem, and do the back crawl for the 25M on the way back with no rest break in between. (Last Thursday, I couldn't even complete one 25M length front crawl, although I had done it before.)

It has to do with the diver and not with the agency.

What about the instructor, Gray? Although I'm not a diver yet, I have experienced at least 3 instructors and 2 agencies so I'd like to comment here if I may. My thought on this is that while the agency can be important, the instructor is more important. An instructor may be an extremely skilled and experienced diver, but if s/he can't communicate these skills or the required academics to a student, s/he isn't much of an instructor. Is this the student diver's fault? No.

Case in point: In my PADI course, I had trouble with the RDP. I asked the instructor to help me and he was unable to. I'm paraphrasing here but basically what he said to me was, 'I can't explain it." Needless to say, I failed a particular type of RDP-related questions on both my quiz and my final exam.

Later, my instructor's father who was also an instructor assured me he'd help me understand the questions when we went over my exam. Well guess what? He couldn't figure out the damn questions for himself, nevermind me! He had to ask a DM to help him! Was it my fault I didn't understand dive tables? No. I was never taught them.

Hopefully, I'll meet with success with my next instructor (and agency).

[PerroneFord]

I'd like to throw a couple of coppers into the pot if I may...

Perrone,

If you're in a pool practicing your skills where I think you are, I reckon you've got someone very skilled at diving and teaching checking up on you periodically to make sure you're doing things correctly. There's not much point practicing if you're not practicing properly.

Well, sometimes I practice at my instructors house, sometimes I just jump in the pool here. However, my instructor has observed me, but not said anything about poor technique. He seems to think I'm doing fine on my own. There are some things where I can use some work but it's just time in the water. The drysuit will help as well. My feet are SO negative in that shorty with the jetfins.

As for your instructor who couldn't work the RDP, that's inexcusable. Period! I don't care WHAT agency they are with. But it goes back to practice. If you don't use the tables, but rely on the computer, you get out of practice.

[gcbryan]

I'd like to throw a couple of coppers into the pot if I may...

It has to do with the diver and not with the agency.

What about the instructor, Gray? Although I'm not a diver yet, I have experienced at least 3 instructors and 2 agencies so I'd like to comment here if I may. My thought on this is that while the agency can be important, the instructor is more important. An instructor may be an extremely skilled and experienced diver, but if s/he can't communicate these skills or the required academics to a student, s/he isn't much of an instructor. Is this the student diver's fault? No.

Case in point: In my PADI course, I had trouble with the RDP. I asked the instructor to help me and he was unable to. I'm paraphrasing here but basically what he said to me was, 'I can't explain it." Needless to say, I failed a particular type of RDP-related questions on both my quiz and my final exam.

Later, my instructor's father who was also an instructor assured me he'd help me understand the questions when we went over my exam. Well guess what? He couldn't figure out the damn questions for himself, nevermind me! He had to ask a DM to help him! Was it my fault I didn't understand dive tables? No. I was never taught them.

Hopefully, I'll meet with success with my next instructor (and agency).

You are correct regarding instructors. I left them out in my post but just as there are good and bad students there are good and bad instructors. If an instructor can't answer a dive related question then they are a bad instructor. Anytime anyone says I understand something but can't explain it, they don't understand it.This applies to any field of study.
If someone is motivated in an OW class the only reason for failure is due to the instructor.

Edited by gcbryan, 14 May 2006 - 08:49 PM.

[annasea]

If someone is motivated in an OW class the only reason for failure is due to the instructor.

Extenuating circumstances aside...

[finGrabber]

Most divers that anyone observes that seem to be poorly trained divers are usually in fact just divers who don't dive much.

You struck on something here that I want to ask about.

As a coach (soccer), I stress to my players that in order to have proficiency, it is PARAMOUNT to practice. To that end, I try to get in a pool session or two a week to work on my skills. Just in an unpressured, shallow environment. I used to have to work in the deep end, but now can work in 3-4ft.

I suspect most people here consider themselves "good divers", and I've had the good fortune to dive with a few SD members, and they were indeed good divers. So I wonder, how many divers here actually practice their skills regularly. Whether it's jumping in the pool, or working on things at your deco stops, or whatever.

Is this something that is simply not done? Or do people do it and just not mention it here?

Funny you should mention practice

On the Turks and Caicos SD trip, I was doing weight checks on at least 3 dives, I did buddy breathing with WW while on a safety stop and we did all kinds of navigation dives

when I did the weight checks, I discovered I could drop 2 pounds so I did...the dives after that were so easy! almost effortless...I had no changes in bouyancy, I didn't have problems holding my depth and I was very happy that I wasn't really lite at the end of the dive with 750 psi in the tank

[Diverbrian]

I'd like to throw a couple of coppers into the pot if I may...

Perrone,

If you're in a pool practicing your skills where I think you are, I reckon you've got someone very skilled at diving and teaching checking up on you periodically to make sure you're doing things correctly. There's not much point practicing if you're not practicing properly.

Well, sometimes I practice at my instructors house, sometimes I just jump in the pool here. However, my instructor has observed me, but not said anything about poor technique. He seems to think I'm doing fine on my own. There are some things where I can use some work but it's just time in the water. The drysuit will help as well. My feet are SO negative in that shorty with the jetfins.

As for your instructor who couldn't work the RDP, that's inexcusable. Period! I don't care WHAT agency they are with. But it goes back to practice. If you don't use the tables, but rely on the computer, you get out of practice.

As to the RDP, that is a multilevel dive planning tool that is taught by one agency. The agencies that don't use it teach standard tables. I couldn't use an RDP, but I can run a square dive table quite easily as well as use a computer.

[annasea]

As to the RDP, that is a multilevel dive planning tool that is taught by one agency. The agencies that don't use it teach standard tables. I couldn't use an RDP, but I can run a square dive table quite easily as well as use a computer.

Whew! (a huge sigh of relief) Thanks for the info, Brian!

[gcbryan]

Most divers that anyone observes that seem to be poorly trained divers are usually in fact just divers who don't dive much.

You struck on something here that I want to ask about.

As a coach (soccer), I stress to my players that in order to have proficiency, it is PARAMOUNT to practice. To that end, I try to get in a pool session or two a week to work on my skills. Just in an unpressured, shallow environment. I used to have to work in the deep end, but now can work in 3-4ft.

I suspect most people here consider themselves "good divers", and I've had the good fortune to dive with a few SD members, and they were indeed good divers. So I wonder, how many divers here actually practice their skills regularly. Whether it's jumping in the pool, or working on things at your deco stops, or whatever.

Is this something that is simply not done? Or do people do it and just not mention it here?

I think it's done when needed but I think it also depends on what each person's individual diving situation is. I dive (salt water) several times a week. There's not as much for me to practice perhaps as someone who doesn't have easy access to the ocean. Practice to a certain extent is taking the place of diving until you can get to your favorite spots. Sure there are certain skills that everyone can practice on ocassion but I'm curious what skills are you practicing several times a week in the pool? My guess is valve drills and sharing air if you are in the pool with someone else. Otherwise it might be buoyancy. Once you get buoyancy down however there's really not much to practice in that regard so I am interested in what you usually practice.

[PerroneFord]

I think it's done when needed but I think it also depends on what each person's individual diving situation is. I dive (salt water) several times a week. There's not as much for me to practice perhaps as someone who doesn't have easy access to the ocean. Practice to a certain extent is taking the place of diving until you can get to your favorite spots. Sure there are certain skills that everyone can practice on ocassion but I'm curious what skills are you practicing several times a week in the pool? My guess is valve drills and sharing air if you are in the pool with someone else. Otherwise it might be buoyancy. Once you get buoyancy down however there's really not much to practice in that regard so I am interested in what you usually practice.

I agree that practice becomes more important during longer periods away from actual diving. In season, I am doing 2-4 dives a week. Out of season, it may be 2 months between dives.

So what am I working on? Well you have to remember I'm a newbie. So I'm working on things like, staying still... turning around in place, mask removal and replacement, valve drills, OOA procedures, etc. Just the mundane things.

On dives, I am working on things like clean finnnig techniques, trying to guess my SPG reading before looking, and I added bag shooting to the mix last week. Pretty challenging the first time you try it! I would imagine someone of your experience would not need constant work on these tasks. They should be automatic for you at this point.

[gcbryan]

I think it's done when needed but I think it also depends on what each person's individual diving situation is. I dive (salt water) several times a week. There's not as much for me to practice perhaps as someone who doesn't have easy access to the ocean. Practice to a certain extent is taking the place of diving until you can get to your favorite spots. Sure there are certain skills that everyone can practice on ocassion but I'm curious what skills are you practicing several times a week in the pool? My guess is valve drills and sharing air if you are in the pool with someone else. Otherwise it might be buoyancy. Once you get buoyancy down however there's really not much to practice in that regard so I am interested in what you usually practice.

I agree that practice becomes more important during longer periods away from actual diving. In season, I am doing 2-4 dives a week. Out of season, it may be 2 months between dives.

So what am I working on? Well you have to remember I'm a newbie. So I'm working on things like, staying still... turning around in place, mask removal and replacement, valve drills, OOA procedures, etc. Just the mundane things.

On dives, I am working on things like clean finnnig techniques, trying to guess my SPG reading before looking, and I added bag shooting to the mix last week. Pretty challenging the first time you try it! I would imagine someone of your experience would not need constant work on these tasks. They should be automatic for you at this point.

I believe that you live in Florida so what does in season and out of season mean for you? Are you referring to when soccer season is over you have more time to dive?

For what it's worth I practice al the time but it's usually in the context of a dive. I'll let someone else lead so I get more practice following or I'll do different types of dives with different goals,etc.

By the way I also practice guessing SPG readings before looking at it as well as doing the same before reading depth and time.

Edited by gcbryan, 15 May 2006 - 12:24 AM.

[PerroneFord]

Yes, I do mean soccer season, but despite the fact I live in Florida, it does get cold here. Soccer for me is an 8 month a year endeavor. And it generally pays for my diving and dive gear. But it completely dominates my schedule away from work. It's essentially another 25-30 hour a week job, primarily done evenings and weekends. Really cuts into the diving.

As for cold weather, remember that I still dive wet. If you can remember what it's like to dive wet, you'll understand that its not the water that's so bad, its the surface interval. I remember last December doing a dive at Ginnie Springs. Water temps were 72F. Air temp was 37F. Everyone around me was in a drysuit. I was cursing at them under my breath!

I hope to be diving dry by next winter.

[6Gill]

As to the RDP, that is a multilevel dive planning tool that is taught by one agency. The agencies that don't use it teach standard tables. I couldn't use an RDP, but I can run a square dive table quite easily as well as use a computer.

The RDP is a table designed for square profile diving,the multi-level dive planning tool I think your refering to is the Wheel.Of course now we have the eRDP avalible...

[Dive_Girl]

It is soooo fun to be gone for one weekend enjoying a fabulous SD event to return to an interesting thread with the old dive agency arguments!

I have an idea. For those divers on this board who are not dive professionals but very concerned about today's dive education, future divers, the perceived lowering of standards, etc. I have an invite for you. Please join me in the PNW and passively assist me in my next OW class. Or better-yet become a dive professional and work toward changing industry standards as a whole! Board discussions won't do it and often just leave people more divided. If you want to see change, get in there and make it happen (quit talking and start walking )!

As for PADI making Nitrox dives an optional portion of the class, I believe Fin pointed it out somewhere above - PADI was one of the last agencies to make the dives optional. Please keep in mind the word optional. It means we, as instructors, have a choice if we want to send our divers off without the dives.

Just as you discuss there being divers out there who can make better choices for themselves, please recognize so can we as instructors, regardless of dive agencies.

The dive agency discussion is truly odd to me in whole. No one can show undeniable proof that one ariline is better than another; that one car manufacturer is better than another; that one restaurant is the best in the world; that one chewing gum out-ranks all others; that one toilet paper is the quintessential...get my drift?

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[rekdivr]

I find that when it comes right down to it, it is the Instructor who Ultimately provides the experience. Being a PADI Course Director, we know where my allegance lies. But I have seen great Instructors across the board through all the agencies, as well as horribly bad ones.

I find it disturbing that folks make generalizations here without the full facts of the situation, without doing research into a topic they have chosen to discuss.

I apologize on behalf of all Quality Intructors to those individuals who have had bad experiences in diving, either through a poor instructor(regardless of agency) or shop. We certainly want you to have a good experience.

I also extend the same invitation that dive_girl has, if anyone wants to sit in on any of my classes, or any of my staffs, you are more than welcome to.

Also, PADI is one of the last agencies to drop the dives as a requirement. And when it come down to it, the underwater skills on the EANx dives are as follows, Breathe in, Breathe out, Repeat as necesary!

chris

[annasea]

<snip>I apologize on behalf of all Quality Intructors to those individuals who have had bad experiences in diving, either through a poor instructor(regardless of agency) or shop. We certainly want you to have a good experience. <snip>

On behalf of all those that had an awful experience, I accept your apology, rekdiver. I doubt any instructor (even the ones I had) wants a student to have a bad experience, but nonetheless, some people should not be instructors; regardless of the discipline.