99 replies to this topic

[PerroneFord]

These premesis all start off with the "so your buddy is no where around and the $h!t hit the fan"... I really want to emphasize w/ DIR - team and situational awareness are key tennets... If you loose your buddy - the dive is over.

The entire concept of DIR is hinged right here, and it's lost on most people because it is so far outside the realm of their diving, it cannot be fathomed. How can you POSSIBLY explore caves for HOURS in bad or no vis and not lose your buddy. How can you penetrate a shipwreck and not lose your buddy?

Situational awareness is not unique to DIR, but is THE fundamental principle of diving DIR. The "TEE" principle.

Team
Equipment
Environment

Team is first for a reason.

[gcbryan]

These premesis all start off with the "so your buddy is no where around and the $h!t hit the fan"... I really want to emphasize w/ DIR - team and situational awareness are key tennets... If you loose your buddy - the dive is over.

The entire concept of DIR is hinged right here, and it's lost on most people because it is so far outside the realm of their diving, it cannot be fathomed. How can you POSSIBLY explore caves for HOURS in bad or no vis and not lose your buddy. How can you penetrate a shipwreck and not lose your buddy?

Situational awareness is not unique to DIR, but is THE fundamental principle of diving DIR. The "TEE" principle.

Team
Equipment
Environment

Team is first for a reason.

How someone can be so condescending with so few dives is completely beyond me. .."so far outside the realm of their diving, it cannot be fathomed...how you can dive without losing your buddy..."

[AliKat]

These premesis all start off with the "so your buddy is no where around and the $h!t hit the fan"... I really want to emphasize w/ DIR - team and situational awareness are key tennets... If you loose your buddy - the dive is over.

The entire concept of DIR is hinged right here, and it's lost on most people because it is so far outside the realm of their diving, it cannot be fathomed. How can you POSSIBLY explore caves for HOURS in bad or no vis and not lose your buddy. How can you penetrate a shipwreck and not lose your buddy?

Situational awareness is not unique to DIR, but is THE fundamental principle of diving DIR. The "TEE" principle.

Team
Equipment
Environment

Team is first for a reason.

How someone can be so condescending with so few dives is completely beyond me. .."so far outside the realm of their diving, it cannot be fathomed...how you can dive without losing your buddy..."

These attitudes are the exact reason for my answer of "don't know anything about and don't want to know anything about it".

[PerroneFord]

These attitudes are the exact reason for my answer of "don't know anything about and don't want to know anything about it".

Don't blame my attitude on DIR. Has nothing at all to do with it. If you think my attitude is poor, that's fine. But it belongs to me alone and not to my diving system.

[PerroneFord]

How someone can be so condescending with so few dives is completely beyond me. .."so far outside the realm of their diving, it cannot be fathomed...how you can dive without losing your buddy..."

Probably because I get tired of reading how people with 10 times the number of dives I have manage to lose buddies in 40ft of water, or kill their buddies because they were too "busy" to realize their buddy was drowning.

Story this week: Two brothers from NYC, diving in 60ft of water. One "loses" the other, surfaces, and sees his brother's bubbles. Brother drowns because he couldn't remember to drop his own weight belt.

[annasea]

As with most things in life, I reckon the adage "Quality not Quantity" holds true for diving as well.

[PerroneFord]

All too true Annasea.

[netmage]

As with most things in life, I reckon the adage "Quality not Quantity" holds true for diving as well.

Truer words were never spoken... and common sense isn't so common... Last weekend in the Keys - the morning dive was on the Bibb (On its side - 110-130') and the Duane (upright, ~110') (Artifical Reefs - Coast Guard Cutters) and these two guys shoot up... one of them just bolts as his buddy notibly has the 'here - I got plenty - suck off this' look in his eyes... the guy shoots from 30' to the surface and bypasses 6 divers.

[gcbryan]

How someone can be so condescending with so few dives is completely beyond me. .."so far outside the realm of their diving, it cannot be fathomed...how you can dive without losing your buddy..."

Probably because I get tired of reading how people with 10 times the number of dives I have manage to lose buddies in 40ft of water, or kill their buddies because they were too "busy" to realize their buddy was drowning.

Story this week: Two brothers from NYC, diving in 60ft of water. One "loses" the other, surfaces, and sees his brother's bubbles. Brother drowns because he couldn't remember to drop his own weight belt.

What makes you think that is typical behavior or that most people can't fathom diving without losing their buddy? If I judged everyone's attitude in Northern Florida by yours might I be making a misjudgement?

Maybe the quality of your 45 dives gives you the right to insult the intelligence of most everyone else on the board?

Edited by gcbryan, 15 September 2006 - 03:51 AM.

[PerroneFord]

What makes you think that is typical behavior or that most people can't fathom diving without losing their buddy? If I judged everyone's attitude in Northern Florida by yours might I be taking a misjudgement?

Maybe the quality of your 45 dives gives you the right to insult the intelligence of most everyone else on the board?

Typical? Never said it was typical. But I see it far, FAR, too much. If you judge other people in N.FL. by what I post that's your issue not mine. My opinions are my own, despite how some people wish to contrue them to be the opinions of some "agency". I am the "bad apple" in the barrel.

Did I insult your intelligence? I'm sorry. I'd think with your experience, you'd be used to brushing off peons like me.

[VADiver]

IMO this is what causes the friction between DIR divers and others...the stong belief in the unified team, situational awareness and the correct configuration for the dive (i.e planning the dive, diving the plan). I agree with both Perrone and Netmage, but I've had the chance to dive with Brian and would do so again. The main rule in DIR is "Never dive with an unsafe diver." I says nothing about gear configuration; howevere, that being said I won't use a single tank for penetration nor would I carry a pony for a redundant air suppy. If my dive planning calls for a redundant supply or more gas I'll use doubles.

As for unsafe divers we have all seen them...the OOA emergency because the guy couldn't find the anchor line and was scared (or not trained) to shoot a bag and do a free ascent; or the guy who bolts to the surface at the first sign of a problem. Basically, unless there is a catostrophic failure there should never be an OOA emergency. That is just unacceptable.

Most of all accidents and deaths are due to carelessness and poor training. Will there be undeserved DCS hits--yes. But the majority of accidents can be avoided by proper planning, training and having the proper mindset.

I dive DIR and enjoy diving with people of a similar mindset; but I will dive with other non-DIR divers if they meet Rule #1 and are safe.

Edited by VADiver, 14 September 2006 - 07:43 PM.

[gcbryan]

What makes you think that is typical behavior or that most people can't fathom diving without losing their buddy? If I judged everyone's attitude in Northern Florida by yours might I be taking a misjudgement?

Maybe the quality of your 45 dives gives you the right to insult the intelligence of most everyone else on the board?

Typical? Never said it was typical. But I see it far, FAR, too much. If you judge other people in N.FL. by what I post that's your issue not mine. My opinions are my own, despite how some people wish to contrue them to be the opinions of some "agency". I am the "bad apple" in the barrel.

Did I insult your intelligence? I'm sorry. I'd think with your experience, you'd be used to brushing off peons like me.

I'm not associating your views with DIR. Half of the people I dive with have at least gone through DIRf and maybe Adv/Nitrox through some other agency. Some have taken Tech 1 and 2. I don't look at them as DIR either. I look at them as people. Some people I like to dive with because I like them and some I don't.

I don't think you are a peon, and I know you don't think you are a peon. Anyway, it's too easy to be a victim and blame it on DIR feeling that no one understands you. When you say ridiculous things if I comment it's because of what you are saying. It has nothing to do with DIR. There are plenty of unsafe, sloppy, and even stupid divers and well as drivers and people in general in every aspect of life.

It's a false argument to assume that the rift between DIR/non-DIR divers is because only one side values good buddy skills. For the most part there is no rift. The rift is from internet DIR divers lecturing every poster. In real life most DIR divers do not do this. The rift is mainly in the eyes of an overbearing, lecturing, internet DIR diver using that as an excuse for why other's aren't always interested in their posts.

Edited by gcbryan, 14 September 2006 - 08:10 PM.

[PerroneFord]

I'm not associating your views with DIR.

You aren't, but others are. Which is very unfair to DIR.

I don't think you are a peon, and I know you don't think you are a peon.

Come on now. You and I both know better. I am absolutely NOBODY in the realm of diving. I just like getting in the water time to time and having some new experiences...

Anyway, it's too easy to be a victim and blame it on DIR feeling that no one understands you.

Are you saying I did this? Like when I made this comment:

Don't blame my attitude on DIR. Has nothing at all to do with it. If you think my attitude is poor, that's fine. But it belongs to me alone and not to my diving system.

I am not laying ANYTHING at the feet of DIR or using it to absolve any of my statements.

It's a false argument to assume that the rift between DIR/non-DIR divers is because only one side values good buddy skills. For the most part there is no rift. The rift is from internet DIR divers lecturing every poster. In real life most DIR divers do not do this. The rift is mainly in the eyes of an overbearing, lecturing, internet DIR diver using that as an excuse for why other's aren't always interested in their posts.

As you well know, many divers value good buddy skills. Some agencies even teach it. Few seem to be as rigorous about it (from my limited experience) as GUE. Be that as it may, this is an internet forum. We are all able to offer our opinon as weighty or as worthless as it might be. There are no professors at the front of the class lecturing. There are only divers offering their opinion and perspective on matters. They may be right, or they may be wrong.

You've clearly done more diving than me. I've heard from other divers I respect that you are a good diver. I am sorry that you see me as overbearing and lecturing. And if you are uninterested in my posts, that's fine as well. You are free to tune them out. Perhaps after gaining as much experience as you, I will change my mind about diving. Perhaps not. Fortunately, it's a BIG world, and you needn't be worried about me or other internet DIR divers making the waters unsafe for you. We never get our gear wet anyway...

[gcbryan]

As you well know, many divers value good buddy skills. Some agencies even teach it. Few seem to be as rigorous about it (from my limited experience) as GUE. Be that as it may, this is an internet forum. We are all able to offer our opinon as weighty or as worthless as it might be. There are no professors at the front of the class lecturing. There are only divers offering their opinion and perspective on matters. They may be right, or they may be wrong.

You've clearly done more diving than me. I've heard from other divers I respect that you are a good diver. I am sorry that you see me as overbearing and lecturing. And if you are uninterested in my posts, that's fine as well. You are free to tune them out. Perhaps after gaining as much experience as you, I will change my mind about diving. Perhaps not. Fortunately, it's a BIG world, and you needn't be worried about me or other internet DIR divers making the waters unsafe for you. We never get our gear wet anyway...

I don't look at people (divers or otherwise) as being nobodies nor do I look at people as being somebodies.

One of the strengths of DIR is their emphasis on buddy skills and I wish more of my buddies had better buddy skills and I'm always trying to make sure mine are acceptable.

I'm not holding myself out as having an exceptional level of experience. It is what it is.

I wasn't specificly referring to you as being overbearing and lecturing. Some comments are out of line in my opinion on occassion. I am interested in reading most of your posts as I am in reading anyone who is into diving as you are. I just don't see the value in trashing most divers or in portraying divers as DIR vs idiots.

I'm sure I could have expressed myself better .

Edited by gcbryan, 15 September 2006 - 04:00 AM.

[Dive_Girl]

It's a false argument to assume that the rift between DIR/non-DIR divers is because only one side values good buddy skills. For the most part there is no rift.

This is a very good statement. I dove with you Gray. I dove with you in less than the best visibility, in the dark, and we were never apart. Buddy skills are key and not owned by any one agency. They are owned by the diver and their personal responsibility. I would dive with you again any time, especially appreciating your attention to the little things on the dive. I treasured someone else taking joy in showing me amazing little critters I noted as being those critters I don't often see. I thank you again for two wonderful dives.

IMO this is what causes the friction between DIR divers and others...the stong belief in the unified team, situational awareness and the correct configuration for the dive (i.e planning the dive, diving the plan). I agree with both Perrone and Netmage, but I've had the chance to dive with Brian and would do so again. The main rule in DIR is "Never dive with an unsafe diver." I says nothing about gear configuration; howevere, that being said I won't use a single tank for penetration nor would I carry a pony for a redundant air suppy. If my dive planning calls for a redundant supply or more gas I'll use doubles.

And while I agree, as I have posted before sometimes a sling bottle as a redundant makes sense for some divers who are perhaps not as strong as their male counterparts. I do like doubles, but not for every type of diving I do in the PNW - such as when I have to jump guard rails and hike down shore sides to get to the water. I can carry a sling to the water, then my single to pick up the sling at the water. I do plan to dive doubles, however, when we head to the Great Lakes ot meet with with Brian!! And you'll enjoy diving with Gray with graceful_c and I when we get you out this way!!!