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HID vs. LED


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#16 PerroneFord

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 08:37 PM

Well, it's not really a fair comparison because they are very different lights.

I loved my Light Cannon while it lasted. But frankly, I disliked the expensive and fragile bulb. HID's are definitely brighter, whiter, more focused, but I can't deal with the lack of what I call the "klutz factor" and the costs involved. If the bulbs were only $20 a pop, I could probably deal with that, but not $100! Mine broke the first time with just normal usage (well, what I was used to as normal usage). Ok, I'll replace it once, I told myself. I handled it with TLC after that and even got a little padded case for it. But when it broke again from an 18" drop to a carpeted floor just a short time later, I laid it to rest. For the price of a bulb, I went with the Shockwave II LED and am fairly content with it, particularly the high "klutz factor". I believe LED technology will eventually be par with HID. There was an article in Science News about a month or two ago that they've already developed an LED that is 7 times brighter than the ones on the market today. But it's not there yet.

If available funds are high, your "klutz factor" is low, then go with an HID (if you're considering Green Force, then I assume you have a healthy budget). If you dive mostly in 70ft+ vis waters, HID is an overkill.


I have seen an HID dropped from table height onto a concrete floor and be none the worse for wear. I have seen one literally hurled against a drywall building wall, WHILE lit, and didn't hiccup. I've seen them literally banged on a podium while lit and be fine. The demo for the GreenForce 21w head has the present drive nails into 2x4s with the lighthead while it's on.

It all depends on the HID, as they are clearly not all the same.

#17 jextract

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 05:58 PM

OK, let's assume that I'm now (thanks to you all) on the HID train. My budget is not unlimited and I am VERY, repeat VERY hard on things. What brand of HID light do you recommend as the most indestructable?
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#18 PerroneFord

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 06:05 PM

Most indestructable? Green Force. What would I buy? Salvo most likely.

#19 Dive_Girl

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 04:48 PM

At the risk of seeming contrary, I am going to disagree here. I did this A/B test at home with the greenforce HID/LED and the Dive Rite MR11 head. All looked pretty nice. In my first overhead dive, I could tell the LED just wasn't getting it done.

When I got in the cave for the first time, the Dive Rite's narrow beam was EASILY superior to the Greenforce for signaling and penetrating distance. Both pale in comparison to the Halcyon, Salvo, and Sarteks.

-P

I was looking at Salvo recently and the cannister/cord portion looks identical to the Dive Rite cannisters/cords. Click here. The head and ballast of the Salvo made me nervous as they light bulb looks identical to the UK Light cannon only protected by a test tube styled glass cover and and 2 o-rings. Click here Again appearing identical to the Dive Rite Compact H10 HID 10-Watt Light Head, which I have seen the bulb flood. That's why I chose the Dive Rite Compact MR11 HID 10-Watt Light Head. Does anyone know how similar the Salvo and the Dive Rite really are?
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#20 PerroneFord

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 07:20 PM

Apples to Oranges. I've used both, our shop is a Dive Rite dealer. I won't even take the H10 head light with me when I dive. I use the MR11 head DR when I can't get anything else.

As for the canister, they are different, as are the battery packs. Dive Rite is PVC, Salvo (and Halcyon) are Delrin. Again, apples and oranges.

If you have the time and inclination, I suggest you read this:

http://www.safecaved...m/equipment.htm

-P

#21 netmage

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 09:51 PM

Apples to Oranges. I've used both, our shop is a Dive Rite dealer. I won't even take the H10 head light with me when I dive. I use the MR11 head DR when I can't get anything else.

As for the canister, they are different, as are the battery packs. Dive Rite is PVC, Salvo (and Halcyon) are Delrin. Again, apples and oranges.

If you have the time and inclination, I suggest you read this:

http://www.safecaved...m/equipment.htm

-P



The Light Cannons, Halcyon's all use Welch Allyn bulbs and ballasts (I think DR as well - but I'm not sure...)
Salvo uses Brightstar, which is dang near indestructable...
I've seen the green force demo as well - but the propreitary design is a draw back, and the price tag is up there. Vs DR, Salvo, Halcyon, or Sartek for that matter, I can take my light to any of them and say "make fixxee", and for a fee - they will... Mostly interchangable parts. (other than bulb/ballast which are paired)

Was at CE East by Ginnie, they had the focusable Salvo 10W for under $499 on sale (I think, or maybe it was right over $500.., either way for such a close difference, between the DR fixed, and a focusable, I'd go focusable... But the DR 10W MR11 head is nice for ocean and travel - I have one too)

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#22 PerroneFord

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 10:40 PM

CEE

Unmarked DR 10w fixed was $425, Marked DR was $499, Salvo 10w focusable was $580. This was about 4 weeks ago when I was down there.

All good deals. I have yet to see the 10w Green Force below $750. I couldn't buy it through the shop for less than $725. Proprietary design isn't too big an issue to me, but the bad handle design is.

#23 mechanical31

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 10:02 AM

Why not build your own HID? I have seriously considered it, but I own a tool and die shop and could do a professional job. Even with some custom engraving. I have found all the parts and to be honest with you, the price for HID lights is unbelievably too high. They can be built for less than 200.00. Six gill turned me on to a book called the dive light companion that has great detail in how to build one and there is a Yahoo? group callled divelight that is all about it. I would consider building about 5 or six and split the cost if enough are interested. You could even tell me what kind of engraving you would like. I am not talking about PVC either. Lexan would probably be my choice for canister material. Ah just a thought. I'll let people that know anything keep you on topic.
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#24 PerroneFord

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 10:54 PM

What kind of warranty would you offer against flooding and other issues? What are you thinking of charging for a 13.5ah 21w light?

#25 ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 09:44 PM

I have a fair amount of experience with the major players for lights. My Halcyon 10 watt worked pretty well for 300+ dives. After that, it started flickering in intensity.

I just had it changed to the Salvo ballast and the Brightstar bulb. Reason: I have a second light head (on a cord and canister lid) which Salvo built for me so that I could have a spare that I could just pop on in place of a primary (if failed), allowing me to deal with any problems with the primary after my trip is over. The Salvo has taken a good beating, and I think it will hold up better than the Halcyon over the long run. So, now I have two of them instead of one Halcyon and one Salvo.

During the course of the past two weeks, I have gained an even higher respect for Dive Rite equipment overall. The Sun Spot series of lights are very compact, and they throw a nice, bright and even light. This might be a good candidate for a lot of divers.

DR also now manufactures a hand-held version of this light (10 watt). No canister, metal body, and it uses standard batteries. This is a great light for travel especially where keeping total gear under a weight limit is an issue. Take the light with you without the batteries, buy a set of batteries at your destination, and bring back with you after disposing of the batteries. I just picked up one of these this week, and I will carry it with me as either the ultimate backup light or as a travel light. Street price on it is about $350. Burn time ranges from about two to three hours (depending on battery).

Hope this helps.
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#26 gcbryan

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 12:13 AM

I have a fair amount of experience with the major players for lights. My Halcyon 10 watt worked pretty well for 300+ dives. After that, it started flickering in intensity.

I just had it changed to the Salvo ballast and the Brightstar bulb. Reason: I have a second light head (on a cord and canister lid) which Salvo built for me so that I could have a spare that I could just pop on in place of a primary (if failed), allowing me to deal with any problems with the primary after my trip is over. The Salvo has taken a good beating, and I think it will hold up better than the Halcyon over the long run. So, now I have two of them instead of one Halcyon and one Salvo.

During the course of the past two weeks, I have gained an even higher respect for Dive Rite equipment overall. The Sun Spot series of lights are very compact, and they throw a nice, bright and even light. This might be a good candidate for a lot of divers.

DR also now manufactures a hand-held version of this light (10 watt). No canister, metal body, and it uses standard batteries. This is a great light for travel especially where keeping total gear under a weight limit is an issue. Take the light with you without the batteries, buy a set of batteries at your destination, and bring back with you after disposing of the batteries. I just picked up one of these this week, and I will carry it with me as either the ultimate backup light or as a travel light. Street price on it is about $350. Burn time ranges from about two to three hours (depending on battery).

Hope this helps.


How does the hand-held version that you mentioned compare/constrast to a Light Cannon?

#27 6Gill

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 01:46 AM

Having been in the water here in the PNW with a varity of lights my choice is HID over LED.Also note that not all bulbs are created equal and there are some much more durable than others.Another consideration is that different reflectors will also effect the focus and light beam coverage and shape.This is harder to see above water but noticable underwater.
A light coming out that hasn't been mentioned is Oxycheck's being realeased at DEMA and the price/performance looks pretty good.I haven't laid hands on the light but find Oxyckeck tend to build quality stuff and provide excellant service.

#28 PerroneFord

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 09:31 AM

A light coming out that hasn't been mentioned is Oxycheck's being realeased at DEMA and the price/performance looks pretty good.I haven't laid hands on the light but find Oxyckeck tend to build quality stuff and provide excellant service.


I thought about mentioning it, but refrained due to cost. Most people on a budget, generally aren't going to be interested in a $1300 light. But I could be wrong.

#29 scubafanatic

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 12:58 PM

Having been in the water here in the PNW with a varity of lights my choice is HID over LED.Also note that not all bulbs are created equal and there are some much more durable than others.Another consideration is that different reflectors will also effect the focus and light beam coverage and shape.This is harder to see above water but noticable underwater.
A light coming out that hasn't been mentioned is Oxycheck's being realeased at DEMA and the price/performance looks pretty good.I haven't laid hands on the light but find Oxyckeck tend to build quality stuff and provide excellant service.


...is this new Oxycheck light HID or LED ?

Karl

#30 ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 01:42 PM

I stopped by their booth, but I don't recall seeing it, and the people there didn't mention anything to me about it while going over their product line. Is it in fact out?
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