43 replies to this topic

[Boatlawyer]

He should take any money earmarked for legal proceedings and use them for therapy. Much higher odds for a better outcome.

Boatlawyer is exactly right that this manipulative woman is an example of what collection attorneys would call "judgment-proof." Not judgment in the sense of the Christian/non-Christian debate earlier in the thread, but judgment in the legal definition of a court order to pay up. Getting that order is the easy part (easy, but not cheap) ... but collecting the first dime would be very difficult. To cite one famous case, just ask Ron Goldman how much he has collected in his multimillion dollar judgment against OJ Simpson. (answer: zero)

So while Boatlawyer's counsel to avoid the wasteful expense of litigation is wise, I must disagree with her when she suggests using the money for therapy instead. Paying $100 an hour to emote your woes while someone takes notes and says "hmm, how do you feel about that?" is even a bigger waste of money.

DrBill, tell your island-dwelling friend to spend his recovery money at the nearest dive shop. For less than the price of a months' worth for shrink visits, he can get his C-card and equipment. It will be the best therapy he's ever had, and who knows? He just might meet a quality woman for a change; the scuba world's full of them. I hear there's even a website out there just for single divers.

Yeah! Plus after getting bit by the dive bug he'll have no money to spend on manipulative women, what with all the travel, dive gear, happy hours....

But seriously, diving is great therapy for a broken heart, but to help make better choices in relationships, I have found therapy can really help. It is too easy to by into the "all women are" or "all men are" black and white thinking mode. Investing this kind of money into someone who was waving every shade of red flag indicates a serious need for re-wiring this guy's love machine.

[drbill]

Well, Herbie is hardly the diving type even though he was the voice of Gary Garibaldi on one of my DVD's). And his friends offer him plenty of therapy... I only charge 2 cents an hour vs $100!

[cmt489]

Sounds like this person is simply a user and a taker and, while an expensive lesson, it sounds like your friend is better off without her. People like her are parasites that will continue to prey on others to fulfill their own needs. The sad part - she will probably find someone else to pick up her slack in the future.

[bluedolphin]

I don't know diddly about being a "Christian", but I see it as more an issue of honesty, integrity and respect and just being a good person.

The question I have is if someone is "Christian" should they be living with someone without the benefit of marriage? From what I understand that is not the case. I am not trying to start a debate here but just an observation of my understanding is correct.

Unfortunately this woman used your friend Dr. Bill as I see it.

[drbill]

I don't know diddly about being a "Christian", but I see it as more an issue of honesty, integrity and respect and just being a good person.

The question I have is if someone is "Christian" should they be living with someone without the benefit of marriage? From what I understand that is not the case. I am not trying to start a debate here but just an observation of my understanding is correct.

I am amazed at how some "Christians" justify their sexual arrangements. I'm not sure what current thinking re: pre-marital sex, cohabitation, etc., is in Christian circles. Would be interested if some of our practicing Christians want to explain. I seem to have stricter standards than many of those who live here and profess to be Christian. Makes my life pretty boring!

[Moose]

I don't know diddly about being a "Christian", but I see it as more an issue of honesty, integrity and respect and just being a good person.

The question I have is if someone is "Christian" should they be living with someone without the benefit of marriage? From what I understand that is not the case. I am not trying to start a debate here but just an observation of my understanding is correct.

I am amazed at how some "Christians" justify their sexual arrangements. I'm not sure what current thinking re: pre-marital sex, cohabitation, etc., is in Christian circles. Would be interested if some of our practicing Christians want to explain. I seem to have stricter standards than many of those who live here and profess to be Christian. Makes my life pretty boring!

First off, there really is no such religion as “Christian.” Christian is a generic term for people of faith that believe that Jesus Christ was the savior and the Son of God. There are many flavors of “Christianity.” They widely range in traditions and adherence to biblical readings. Liken it to calling a Suni and a Shia “Muslim.” (which while technically correct, each would rather wipe the other from the face of the Earth.)
With that said, when someone calls their religion “Christian,” it would normally be followed by a particular flavor. I.e. Protestant, Catholic, Baptism. In the absence of such follow up, I would be suspicious. Unless of course it was a casual conversation. But I would image that in an intimate relationship, that would be something important to discuss.

Some people that follow the bible’s teaching, even to the letter, aren’t that great of a person in the real world. While they spend their Sunday mornings in church professioning their love for their Lord, they leave the church and forget it all. Often you can see them cutting each other off in the parking lot to leave. They never think ‘outside of the box’ on how to be a better person, they just give their tidings, attend church, and maybe make something for the annual church bake sale, and believe that they will be saved.

I believe that daily actions FAR outweigh what you do in church. I would rather befriend a Wicca practitioner that volunteers at the local animal shelter, than a self proclaimed “Christian” like the women your buddy met.

To answer the questions, most core Christian’s believe that premarital sex and/or co-habitation is verboten.

Note, I do not proclaim to be an expert on any religion, I just wanted to share with others that may not be familiar with the “Christian” religion.

[jholley309]

I am amazed at how some "Christians" justify their sexual arrangements. I'm not sure what current thinking re: pre-marital sex, cohabitation, etc., is in Christian circles. Would be interested if some of our practicing Christians want to explain. I seem to have stricter standards than many of those who live here and profess to be Christian. Makes my life pretty boring!

For me, Christianity is less a belief system and more a lifestyle. I don't think Christ ever intended to dictate "laws" like in the Old Testament, although some things are encouraged and some discouraged. The bottom line is acceptance of the idea that Jesus was presented By God as a sacrifice to forgive mankind's sins, and that by accepting and acknowledging that fact you thereby accept God's forgiveness for past sins. There's a key word there: past sins. Along with forgiveness comes the responsibility to repent of your past, sinful ways and live in accordance with the teachings of Jesus and the various apostles. I think that's the part where the erstwhile lady went wrong.

Many people seem to forget that there's a lifestyle change involved in being a "Christian". Putting an icthus (it's the stylized fish that is associated with followers of Christ) applique on your tailgate and a "God is my co-pilot" plate on the front of the car doesn't make you a Christian. How you live your life is what makes you a Christian: with traits like honesty, integrity, patience (which I admittedly have trouble with myself), love, humility (which is often overdone, and if this were a religon-oriented board this could spawn a complete new thread), things like that. Lying, cheating, and stealing are obviously not in that list; especially as a Christian myself, I agree with the assessment that this lady misrepresented at least her committment to the principles of Christianity. It's much easier to say you're a Christian than it is to actually be one. "Sinners saved by grace" is only part of it; you have to continue down that passage until you get to the part where it says "Go and sin no more."

I don't know diddly about being a "Christian", but I see it as more an issue of honesty, integrity and respect and just being a good person.

The question I have is if someone is "Christian" should they be living with someone without the benefit of marriage? From what I understand that is not the case. I am not trying to start a debate here but just an observation of my understanding is correct.

As far as I know there's no actual prohibition against pre-marital sex or co-habitation in the bible (or at least in the New Testament; under the Old Testament covenant I think it is expressly forbidden), but those things are strongly discouraged several times. For pretty good reason; most modern psychologists will tell you that it's more important to develop deeper emotional, spiritual, and psychological connections before moving on to the physical part. It's not that you're going to Hell if you sleep with someone out of wedlock, but doing that before the relationship is fully developed is a good way to end up with an unhealthy relationship. I'ts not The Law, it's just Good Advice. And Christians, like everyone else, sometimes have trouble taking that advice.

Well, that's my contribution for the day. Hope it helps instead of confuses.

Cheers!

Jim

[drbill]

Moose... of course you are absolutely correct in saying what you did about the many flavors of Christianity.

Jim... thanks for your insights, too. In my youth I practiced Presbyterianism and we were rather strongly warned against pre-marital sex, cohabitation, etc. Of course that was in the 50's and early 60's so it was probably as much a part of prevailing social mores (at least as stated, but not always as practiced).

I knew one Evangelical minister who used to practice wife swapping, or at least allowing others to sleep with his wife while he pursued other women. I found his inconsistency intellectually interesting and we had many talks on the subject. I also fell in love with his wife... but that's another story!

[mantarraya]

I don't normally discuss my views of religion much, as it seldom comes to good end, but here goes...

I was raised as a Baptist Bible Belt NE Texas in the 50s to early 70s. I was a voracious reader, and read well beyond my years. However, after reading the bits of the Bible I was asked to read in Sunday School/Church, I developed some healthy skepticism. So at age 12, after being strongly impressed by Mark Twain's Letters from the Earth, I decided to read the book cover-to-cover, not once, but twice, to get a real impression of the work (I think there are not that many Christians, much less 12 year olds around that can proclaim they accomplished that, as let's face it, some of it is very hard reading). I then proceeded to do the same with the Koran, and also some of the Buddhist and Hindi religious works. At the end of this effort, I concluded that while each of the religions professed some very profound and laudable things, that no one seemed that much better than the other. Also, it didn't seemed to me that there was any way of knowing which one was the correct one, if there even IS a correct one. So, I took the brave step of proclaiming myself as an agnostic as age 12 - remember, this is East Texas! My friends luckily still were my friends, despite the fact that they were still all very religious, and all was well (BTW, almost all have come around to be close to my way of thinking on the subject as adults).

In the years since, my further intellectual development has led me more to believe that there is no God, but then again, there is no way to know for sure, so I now consider myself as an agnostic leaning toward atheist. I live my life so as to try to be a good person, and follow those tenets of those major religions that I think are good, chief among them the Golden Rule. I respect the rights of others to believe as they wish, but don't think agents of authority should enforce or promote one religion over any other. I have also learned to just ignore folks who adopt a superior attitude toward me just because they are members of an organized religion and I am not. To me, the proof is in how one lives one's life, not in what one professes to believe, or what religious organization that one claims to be a member.

Plus, I try not to borrow money from boyfriends! However, after reading WW's and Moose's stories, I can see where I might try to help someone out in similar situations. Love is love, however, and it shouldn't have a lot of price tags attached if it is real.

[shadragon]

Now tell me, do her actions sound very Christian to you? I'm not being critical of true Christians in asking this. I have great respect for those who practice the tenets of the religion in a true way. However, why would one who professes to be so true a Believer, do something like this to a guy who only treated her with respect and love?

Irrespective of religion, in the end, it is the individual committing the acts who have to take responsibility.

[Stephi]

Now tell me, do her actions sound very Christian to you? I'm not being critical of true Christians in asking this. I have great respect for those who practice the tenets of the religion in a true way. However, why would one who professes to be so true a Believer, do something like this to a guy who only treated her with respect and love?

Irrespective of religion, in the end, it is the individual committing the acts who have to take responsibility.

One should never assume that a person of any religion is without fault and would do no harm. People with or without a religious affiliation hurt people, that's just the way it is. Didn't King David have a man killed because he wanted his wife??? Yet he was saved by his faith. Once you realize what kind of person you are, and you are saved by the "gift" of grace, you normally become very greatful and it tends to change one's life for the better, however; even then you can take this for granted and fall down. That's human. It doesn't mean you can't be picked up again. Sounds like this lady, if she ever felt the revelation at all, has fallen a looooong way down. It was a terrible thing to do, but I don't think it should be looked at as a "bad Christian" thing, just a "bad person" thing. Gosh, I believe that all of the people who have hurt me in my life have been Christians! It doens't stop me from appreciating my God for all that has been given...like the wonders of scuba diving and the healing power of being beneath the water. Get your friend in the water!

[Geek]

Getting back to the original couple described, has there been any discussion between them about her repaying all or part of the debt?

If he absorbed so much debt that he is at risk of bankruptcy he ought to at least ask her for some help. If she refuses, then some of the discussion about lawyers may or may not make sense. If she has no funds, can she pay him a few hundred a month?

If she refuses to repay her own debt then some discussion with a family law attorney is in order. They have been living together and some aspects of the divorce laws may apply. At a minimum he may be able to force a split of the "marital" debt.

Edited by Geek, 22 March 2007 - 07:35 PM.

[drbill]

An update on this one. She finally moved out after living in his place rent free for two months. She refused to pay even half of the utilities (resulting in his power being turned off and a $375 bill to reconnect). Now she's looking to get half his income tax refund (fat chance... where the heck is she coming from).

At least he has regained his senses.

[Geek]

An update on this one. She finally moved out after living in his place rent free for two months. She refused to pay even half of the utilities (resulting in his power being turned off and a $375 bill to reconnect). Now she's looking to get half his income tax refund (fat chance... where the heck is she coming from).

At least he has regained his senses.

Did I misunderstand? Is this couple married? Unless there is a joint return, there is no reason for her to even know he has a tax refund coming.