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"Security" What a Concept...


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#16 shadragon

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 06:50 AM

Instead of whining about and disparaging Homeland Security, try to remember how you felt on 9-11-01. While (by definition) nothing is fail-safe, I think there's a far less likely chance of it ever happening again because of the security measures now in effect at airports.

Hi Rick. Good points, but remember how 9-11 happened. 5 guys per plane (4 on one of the four) who entered the US legally with proper documentation used box cutters and assorted short blade knives to create havoc in the cabin, forcing the crews to open the door to the flight deck and took over the controls.

In that case all they had to do was strengthen the door to the cockpit (which was done immediately), keep it locked and in case of trouble land the plane at the nearest airport to let the local constabulary handle things from there. Simple solution, practical and efficient. Then we hear about pilots wanting guns. OK, quick observation, but to use that gun, wouldn't they have to open the new locked and reinforced door...? OK, so we have a gun in the cabin. Now, let me assure you that taking a gun off someone who does not know what they are doing is ridiculously easy. After that there was talk of more Sky Marshals being hired. Even if you do have training as a Sky Marshall, attacking him with multiple people in a coordinated effort (especially when one or two are willing to die for that weapon) is a done deal. So now they have access to the cockpit and have a Sig-Sauer hand delivered. I know what Moose was saying about swarming a guy with a box cutter, but a hand gun is a different story. Old Russian proverb: A man with a machine gun can control one hundred men without; as long as they think he is willing to use it.

After 9-11 on the first day that flights resumed, the TSA had new ultra-tight security. A guy boarding a plane at LAX handed a stewardess a loaded hand gun from his carry on bags sheepishly apologizing saying he had "forgotten" it was there.

Today, you can legally carry safety razors in your carry on. Rigging up a handle to wield them is dirt simple. Poof we have a 'box cutter' and that puts us right back where we started. Presently, the threat is liquid explosives so folks are asked to only take no more than 3 oz of fluid onto planes. OK, so purely hypothetically, a guy can pack 8 containers with 3 oz. each labeled hand cream, shampoo, etc. Then he gets four of his buddies to bring 8 each as well. OK, so they now have 5 X 8 X 3 = 120 oz or the equivalent to 10 soda cans. Well, 2 cans would probably be enough to vaporize a plane at altitude so they only need to bring two containers each.

No one is saying take away all security and let people take home-made napalm on board as carry-on. However, the general feeling is that things have been taken way too far for no practical return. There are pieces of equipment that can find the smallest quantities of liquid explosives, and guns and other threats, but you need pros who can interpret the results to be effective. Europe uses professional security firms to work their airports. These companies don't employ minimum wage earners. They use former special forces, police and other professionals. People who are used to spotting troublemakers before the excrement hits the rotating impeller.

However, the cost would be several billion dollars to outfit all of the airports with these wonder gizmo's. The US is currently unable to fund that. I am sure that when they stop spending 180 billion a year for an unspecified foreign war they may be able to spruce up the homestead in a more practical way. Might even improve security overall to stop ticking off that unspecified part of the world as well.

9-11 was a day of tragedy. To avoid future instances all they had to do was reinforce the doors, keep them locked and land the planes in case of trouble. Instead they generated a costly system where regular tax paying and law abiding citizens can be spied upon, their communications monitored, they can be detained or arrested and held indefinitely on unproven suspicions and have potential threats like Cat Stevens deported because of unproven ties to 'terrorism'.

So my original question stands. Do you feel any safer...?
Remember, email is an inefficient communications forum. You may not read things the way it was intended. Give people the benefit of the doubt before firing back... Especially if it is ME...! ;)

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#17 Hipshot

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 06:08 PM

However, the cost would be several billion dollars to outfit all of the airports with these wonder gizmo's. The US is currently unable to fund that. I am sure that when they stop spending 180 billion a year for an unspecified foreign war they may be able to spruce up the homestead in a more practical way. Might even improve security overall to stop ticking off that unspecified part of the world as well.

9-11 was a day of tragedy. To avoid future instances all they had to do was reinforce the doors, keep them locked and land the planes in case of trouble. Instead they generated a costly system where regular tax paying and law abiding citizens can be spied upon, their communications monitored, they can be detained or arrested and held indefinitely on unproven suspicions and have potential threats like Cat Stevens deported because of unproven ties to 'terrorism'.

So my original question stands. Do you feel any safer...?


Good to meet you, Simon. I'd have to agree with you on most points.

I realize that it might not make me the most popular person on the board, but I actually see a benefit to the "War on Terror." I draw an analogy to the Crusades. While one can debate the military wisdom and success of the Crusades, it is an inexorable fact that the Crusaders stemmed the rising tide of Islam through Europe by forcing Islam to defend itself. By the same token, Islamic terrorist activity against Americans has ceased (It was happening on a regular basis prior to 9-11) because America and the West have brought the battle to the terrorists' lands.

As for your point about the cabin doors, hindsight is 20-20. Since 9-11, the doors have been reinforced. And, yes, I feel safer, for the reasons I stated in my first post.

Regards,
Rick

:)

#18 shadragon

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 06:15 AM

Good to meet you, Simon. I'd have to agree with you on most points.

I realize that it might not make me the most popular person on the board, but I actually see a benefit to the "War on Terror." I draw an analogy to the Crusades. While one can debate the military wisdom and success of the Crusades, it is an inexorable fact that the Crusaders stemmed the rising tide of Islam through Europe by forcing Islam to defend itself. By the same token, Islamic terrorist activity against Americans has ceased (It was happening on a regular basis prior to 9-11) because America and the West have brought the battle to the terrorists' lands.

As for your point about the cabin doors, hindsight is 20-20. Since 9-11, the doors have been reinforced. And, yes, I feel safer, for the reasons I stated in my first post.

Glad to see we have more points in common than not... :)

On 14 September, 2001 when George Bush stood in the rubble of the WTC and said, "I can hear you! I can hear you! The rest of the world hears you, and the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon!" you knew someone would pay. The US was mad as hell and the thought I had at the time was Isoroku Yamamoto's famous quote.

When the Rangers dropped into Afghanistan to take on the Taliban, there was not one single voice in disagreement. Every country, coalition and world power stood aside as the US took that country and ousted the Taliban in record time. If things had ended there it would have been a dramatic end; the Afghan's would have gotten the equivalent of the Marshall Plan and rebuilt their war torn country after 100+ years of conflict. There would have been long term stability in the region and there would be considerable good will towards the local Afghan population.
Remember, email is an inefficient communications forum. You may not read things the way it was intended. Give people the benefit of the doubt before firing back... Especially if it is ME...! ;)

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#19 cmt489

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 09:07 AM

In reviewing this thread I note that it has been crossing the edge of political. Just a friendly reminder to refrain from crossing the line to political commentary. You don't want to have to make me use my whips and chains! :)

#20 Hipshot

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 02:45 PM

In reviewing this thread I note that it has been crossing the edge of political. Just a friendly reminder to refrain from crossing the line to political commentary. You don't want to have to make me use my whips and chains! :cool2:


Agreed. Sorry, it's just that this topic lends itself to political commentary so well that it's tough to draw the line. If anyone wishes to continue this via PM, I'll be glad to comment.

Rick
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#21 WreckWench

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 02:54 PM

In reviewing this thread I note that it has been crossing the edge of political. Just a friendly reminder to refrain from crossing the line to political commentary. You don't want to have to make me use my whips and chains! :cool2:


Agreed. Sorry, it's just that this topic lends itself to political commentary so well that it's tough to draw the line. If anyone wishes to continue this via PM, I'll be glad to comment.

Rick
:cool2:



Thanks Rick! Strong emotions and commentary often result from discussions as these. We really respect your taking this discussion offline as it does violate one of our basic precepts which is no politics. Thank you all for your :flirt:

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