98 replies to this topic

[WreckWench]

In fact, in some other post you mentioned something a bubble check and Mod-S and I have no idea what those things are.

A "bubble check" is used to determine if there is any leakage from the valve or first stage. It must be done by your buddy in the water, since you can't really see behind you.

A Mod-S or "Modified S" drill is something adapted from cave diving, wherein buddy teams do a practice deployment of their long hoses to ensure that they are not encumbered. It typically takes place at whatever location the gear was assembled (parking lot, picnic tables, or on the boat if boat diving), and is usually done as one of the final steps of a "buddy check" before entering the water.

Thank you for the explanation! It is always nice to learn new things!

[mantarraya]

People, we need to TALK about this stuff. Stop pointing fingers and really TALK about what is killing us in the water. Only through doing that can we make diving safer.

Agree wholeheartedly. I know that the families and friends of those lost may not like that we talk about it, but at least some good is coming of a tragic situation if other people learn something from their loved ones' mistakes.

[Basslet]

In fact, in some other post you mentioned something a bubble check and Mod-S and I have no idea what those things are.

A "bubble check" is used to determine if there is any leakage from the valve or first stage. It must be done by your buddy in the water, since you can't really see behind you.

A Mod-S or "Modified S" drill is something adapted from cave diving, wherein buddy teams do a practice deployment of their long hoses to ensure that they are not encumbered. It typically takes place at whatever location the gear was assembled (parking lot, picnic tables, or on the boat if boat diving), and is usually done as one of the final steps of a "buddy check" before entering the water.

Thank you for the explanation! It is always nice to learn new things!

Yes. Thanks.

[PerroneFord]

I hope the mods will forgive me this minor transgression...

Quite often the "DIR" divers on this board talk greek. S-Drills, V-Drills, Mod-S, etc. And I am sure it must be confusing and frustrating for many who want to know what we are talking about. When I speak to private parties about DIR and the different kicks and drills and such, I usually send to the following page:

http://www.divetekad....com/Images.htm

If you scroll down a bit, you'll see a heading of "skills". Below that are a series of 30 second videos that show all the fin kicks, and drills we do to pass our Fundamentals course. In GUE, this is your first course and you must pass it to proceed on with further training.

What you will see in the videos is the standard to which we must perform to pass the course. I hope it is illustrative for the curious folks out there.

Of particilar note should be the S-Drill GUE clip, the "skills practice session" which we call Basic 5, the out of air ascent, and the "out of air direct ascent". Some might enjoy the fin kick videos like the frog and helicopter turn.

These skills are not solely the domain of DIR people, but they have come to be identified with DIR because we tend to use them everywhere and cannot move on with DIR training until we've mastered them.

Thanks all, and enjoy.

-P

[DandyDon]

The discussions on this accident have become so overwhelming - I hope to see a dependable summary soon. Using a strobe instead of a reel inside a wreck doesn't sound right, tho. I am not at all experienced on wreck penetrations, but still - cannot imagine entering without a reel. I have been in some dives where a strobe more than a foot away would be worthless, and can imagine a silted wreck compartment seeming like one.

My home bud Jer & I have taken to carrying our reels on every dive now. We started this to practice Sausage Shoots from 70 ft, and while we more and more resemble walking dive stores when we gear up, we're toting them now. I once thot he took a wrong turn into the engine compartment of an Adolphus Busch swim thru and was really worried as I was not going there without one. I did find him still on the aft deck but had I not - I would have wished for a reel so I could tell his mom I did at least look for him.

We've been doing the 15-20 ft bubble checks for some time now. He has to work on his ears some at that depth anyway, so we take turns rotating and getting a thumbs up from the others. It's become automatic for us. Even when I have forgotten to mention this with a boat pick buddy, I'll still stop, get his attention as I rotate, have him rotate - thinking surely he'll tell me if I have a leak.

[nydiver]

We've been doing the 15-20 ft bubble checks for some time now. He has to work on his ears some at that depth anyway, so we take turns rotating and getting a thumbs up from the others. It's become automatic for us. Even when I have forgotten to mention this with a boat pick buddy, I'll still stop, get his attention as I rotate, have him rotate - thinking surely he'll tell me if I have a leak.

Assume nothing, I had a boat buddy pick in Marathon last year, I explained the bubble check drill to him and his brought along buddy, they nodded, at 35 feet as they stood and kicked the sheot out of the reef I made a nice slow pirouet only to turn and find them finning away from me, of course 2 minutes later I realize I do have a slow valve leak, DM didn't even blink when I surfaced, replaced the tank O-ring, and took a seat. I saw one of those "guys" surface so I hide in the head, DM asks him "Where's the other 2?" And that rat says that I took off like a bat outta hell after the descent and he never saw me again.

Another fun one for the records, I was diving out of Key Largo, DM is my buddy, we're doing the spiegel, I put the reel to the front railing and go thru a hatch as that was the plan, at 1700 I signal for a head back, he turns, looks back, then turns back and hands me the reel with the end clipped on it, ahole had unclipped it from the rail and brought it with him. His explination? "I thought we might need it for a lift bag" , uh-hmm, what F-in lift bag? Neither one of us had a lift bag, just MY safety sausage. He was fired I found out a few weeks later.

Gotta watch out for these morons - buddies. Plan the dive, Dive the plan!!!

[DandyDon]

Gotta watch out for these morons - buddies. Plan the dive, Dive the plan!!!

Sounds wonderful but your examples illustrate why I minimize that with most divers. I try to set good examples, take care of my appointed buds, but mostly have been trying to learn to cover my own ass better. I didn't trust buddies before, do less now.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I have been on the Grove many times, and I still haven't seen all of it yet. It is big, and it can get disorienting. It was even worse when it was on its side.

Everyone has made mistakes when diving. Many times, you can be lucky enough to survive the mistakes, learning valuable lessons. It only takes one time of making the mistake without any room for error to lose your life.

Try to learn from your mistakes and from those of others. Most people are not intentionally reckless with their lives. However, it just takes one little slip in the wrong moment for a life to end.

It is sad to see such losses.

[Diverbrian]

I agree with SDM. I see my mistakes as learning experiences. Thankfully, none of them has claimed me yet. I don't say that because I am careless. It is quite the opposite. I try to arrange things so that I am not one mistake away from a serious situation. That is called planning. It is also called being aware that I am human and can't calculate for everything that can happen. That means things like taking more gas than I think that I will need if I am going to be venturing into overheads.

I think that most of us see things in that way. We all have too many people waiting for us to surface to be knowingly reckless with our lives. I hope that valuable lessons are learned from this that may prevent this from happening less in the future.

We need to always remember that many of our policies and rules in diving were written from someone losing their life so that divers that follow don't repeat the fatal errors.

[dustbowl diver]

We need to always remember that many of our policies and rules in diving were written from someone losing their life so that divers that follow don't repeat the fatal errors.

DB,

Your point is valid, but in life we are governed by more rulrs and regulations than we can list. And in life, we CHOOSE to ignore some of them. I believe Perreneford said it best for me in that with diving, I will not exceed what I am trained to do. Wrecks like every other aspect of diving is/are a wonderful experience, I simply will stay on the outside and enjoy the view!!!

[shadragon]

While you should be as self-reliant as possible, having a buddy along adds a whole series of options you would not otherwise have. There are the obvious negative sides as well, but I have had more good experiences than bad overall.

[Geek]

These divers all came from NJ, where I happen to live, so I can add a bit of insight about local conditions, training, etc.

Someone asked whether progressive penetration was taught or used around here. This used to be a commonly used technique, but once the use of reels migrated from the cave diving community into the wreck diving community 15-20 years ago, that became standard. I am not aware of anyone training, using, or espousing progressive penetration at this late date.

S-drills are taught as you move up the training chain, but the sequence seems to vary a bit from one instructor or agency to the next. OW training does not prepare you for local conditions. OW taken locally prepares you for recreational diving in warm water locales. AOW is taught with added content to bring you up to a level where you could take a non-penetration ocean dive off the NJ coast. Added skills include shooting a lift bag, etc. Anyone who has a desire to dive locally takes additional training beyond AOW.

Generally the folks who are going to do penetration diving, spend a lot of time at Dutch Springs, going in and out of the various things sunk on the bottom with instructors or buddies, before they enter their first wreck off the coast.

Someone asked about the use of strobes. The visibility can be pretty bad here, even before you enter a wreck. Some people use strobes on themselves so buddies can spot each other. This is sort of like treating every dive like a night dive. I wouldn't be surprised if someone attached strobes to a line, but I would be very surprised if someone used strobes instead of a line. I have heard of fastening a strobe close to the entrance/exit. I don't think this is taught in any class, but I could be wrong. Using a line is standard. If you are going to do penetration, then a canister and two backup lights per diver are standard equipment.

There was some discussion about tech vs. rec dive operators in FL. Around here, most of the diver operators require a redundant air source, lift bag, and reel to get on the boat. Those items would certainly be considered standard equipment. On a typical "recreational" boat half of the divers will have doubles, the rest have pony bottles of at least 30 cf. As a result, the rec vs. tech distinction is not as meaningful as it might be in FL. The dive operators do want to know how long you will be in the water so they know when to get worried about you.

[PerroneFord]

Geek,

It sounds from your description that many of the cave diving standards have become staples there in NJ. This is good to hear. I am originally from N. Jersey myself so I am not casting aspersions here.

The idea of three lights per diver, doubles, running line, and treating each dive as a night or low-vis dive is of course prevalent in cave training, since we basically start our dives assuming that our primary of everything will fail, including tanks, and plan accordingly.

I wonder in some sense if people who learn and regularly dive in an environment such as yours get complacent when they head to south florida. The warm water, nice vis, and pretty fish seem to lull some people.

I do want to make note, that north florida, and south florida are very different places. You have wrecks with low vis, and we have caves in N. FL. Other than ice, these are two of the most demanding environements one can enter. Tropical diving is really somewhat different, but you still cannot get complacent.

If you would comment, I have seen some posts that indicate that north jersey diving is somehow quite different from south jersey diving. Can you offer some clues into the training or style of one versus the other?

[Geek]

I would hope that divers do not become complacent just because of pleasant conditions. I obviously have no way of knowing if that was a factor in this case.

I am not aware of any differences that are north jersey vs. south jersey. There is variation from shop to shop, agency to agency, etc. While a lot of cave diving protocol has entered the wreck diving community, variation is much more tolerated than in the DIR community. People don't get hung up over the fact you prefer something on the left rather than the right, the color isn't black, etc. Halcyon gear is far less common than OMS, Dive Rite, or ScubaPro. You are expected to get familiar with your buddy's gear.

The agency that seems to be doing the most tech training around here is TDI. Trace Malinowski. who posts here from time to time, is in the area and he represents PDIC. I've heard of DIR classes being run at Dutch Springs and met one DIR instructor out there, but he didn't seem to suffer from the DIR "attitude".

People from this area do travel to cave country and take the training available there.

[PerroneFord]

I didn't mean or intend to discuss DIR here, as I think it is outside of the scope of the discussion. I had seen on the monster thread about the NJ guys, someone mention that they were from NORTH Jersey and would probably be upset that someone called them SOUTH jersey divers. So I wondered what the deliniation might be.

I think people get the idea that somehow DIR is used widely in cave country. Let me assure you it is not. I comprises a miniscule amount of the dive community here, and is seen as more of a scourge than anything else. If you plan to cave dive in this area, you had better be ready to deal with all kinds of gear configs. Frankly, I dive with sidemounters, CCR guys, and NACD/NSS guys FAR more than anything else. I only have 2 DIR dive buddies and neither one is even cavern trained yet!

TDI has a good presence down here thanks to Larry Green. I intend to do some wreck training with them.

I did find your comment curious about the DIR "attitude". You can PM if you like, but I am curious what you think defines that "attitude".

Thanks,

-P

I would hope that divers do not become complacent just because of pleasant conditions. I obviously have no way of knowing if that was a factor in this case.

I am not aware of any differences that are north jersey vs. south jersey. There is variation from shop to shop, agency to agency, etc. While a lot of cave diving protocol has entered the wreck diving community, variation is much more tolerated than in the DIR community. People don't get hung up over the fact you prefer something on the left rather than the right, the color isn't black, etc. Halcyon gear is far less common than OMS, Dive Rite, or ScubaPro. You are expected to get familiar with your buddy's gear.

The agency that seems to be doing the most tech training around here is TDI. Trace Malinowski. who posts here from time to time, is in the area and he represents PDIC. I've heard of DIR classes being run at Dutch Springs and met one DIR instructor out there, but he didn't seem to suffer from the DIR "attitude".

People from this area do travel to cave country and take the training available there.