79 replies to this topic

[PerroneFord]

his leaves you with only 2 lbs of ditchable weight. I would advise you to seriously consider AL rather than the diet.

I realize this may sound silly, but why is having only two pounds of ditchable weight a problem? If you're only negative by the weight of the gas in your tanks when you start the dive (balanced rig) then this should present no real problem at all.

[nydiver]

FALA,

I am also gravitating towards a BPW setup for ocean diving here in the NE. I liked the super-slender Oxycheq Mach V that I saw at BTS, but this is for single tank mounts only. Oxycheq also just came out with a super duty ballistic outer shell option for some of their single and doubles wings that stood up to 1000 slices with a razor blade in a test before it finally failed.

You should also check out the Larry Greene signature wing from OMS. I met Larry at the BTS. He is a seasoned cave diver and has put in a lot of time developing the shape and size of this horseshoe wing for ideal trim and horizontal diving.

As always, the ultimate test is getting in the water with any one of these and seeing how you like it.

Well I feel silly, I took a deluxe harness from Zeagle at BTS (bill is in the mail to the shop), and now I'm getting a Crital Aspect Pteradactyl (sp?) plate to test dive. For those who missed BTS and have never seen this you need to take a looky (www.criticalaspect.com) it looks wide as the deco-stage bottle d-rings are hung off the plate, but neater is next to them are harness rollers. The idea is the shoulders open wide and once your in, you pull the waist straps like normal and BAM its tight as a drum. I think that's pretty neat, only thing I suggested was eliminating the cross at the shoulders and putting in a rivet or flush bolt to hold the straps from sliding in the plates shoulder slots (those in the know will get the idea).

On the zeagle its just another harness system, like most of the generic plates, but it also does singles with no adapters, not a big deal, but it does do it.

[PerroneFord]

CriticalAspect has been trying to get the cavers and some others into those plates. The two guys I know who've tried them, have both ditched them. I prefer the crotch strap myself.

How do you scooter with it?

[cmt489]

What undergarment(s) are you using with that drysuit?

Around here, the bigger question is what aren't I wearing!

I have a compressed neoprene drysuit and Bare CT200 undergarmets. I will also wear additional undergarmets when the water has been particularly cold.

[cmt489]

Single tanks and, while I don't have my tanks yet, I will be getting steel. The diving I have done is with steel. What I can tell you is with a single tank I need more than 10 lbs even with the steel tank and a steel BP/W. I am shockingly bouyant - suppose that means I need a diet! LOL!

I'll interpret "more than 10lbs" as 12 lbs for illustration. Simply switching to the BP/W, with an AL plate, will probably result in a drop of 6 lbs. That was my experience. Going to double tanks will drop another 4 lbs when the tanks are near empty. This leaves you with only 2 lbs of ditchable weight. I would advise you to seriously consider AL rather than the diet.

Nope - sorry! Guess I really am bouyant! I dove with a BP/W with a steel plate and a steel tank and still needed more than 10 lbs of ditchable weight. Granted, I do not have a tri-lam drysuit so my suit maybe adding to this.

With this being said, I also need quite a bit of weight when in my wetsuit (I always need more than they think I will need). I have learned this through trial and error. Generally, in my 3 mm, with a BC and aluminum tank, I tend to need 14 lbs. I am just one of those people who doesn't like to sink...

[nydiver]

CriticalAspect has been trying to get the cavers and some others into those plates. The two guys I know who've tried them, have both ditched them. I prefer the crotch strap myself.

How do you scooter with it?

it has provisions for a crotch strap (the plate I saw had the slot), and why did they ditch them? I could perhaps see it was too wide for a caver (depends on the size of the guy), but it is possible to remove the wide tabs to narrow it up for caving, for NE wrecks its fine and provides solid mounts to ease latching of the stages. I can't say its the finest thing since sliced bread, but it warants a few dives to test it and see if it cuts the mustard or if its just another gadgety item. Honestly I think I could do without the stage mounts, I just like the harness rollers, they're so simplistic in idea and design, can't beleive noone else has ever done that before.

[Geek]

his leaves you with only 2 lbs of ditchable weight. I would advise you to seriously consider AL rather than the diet.

I realize this may sound silly, but why is having only two pounds of ditchable weight a problem? If you're only negative by the weight of the gas in your tanks when you start the dive (balanced rig) then this should present no real problem at all.

2 lbs of ditchable weight is not a problem, but if you are down to 2 lbs of ditchable weight you don't need a 6 lb plate, rather than a 2 lb plate in order to get lead off your belt.

Having no ditchable weight is a problem for some, albeit I am okay with the idea. However, from the point of no weight belt to being negative without the belt, you better have alternate bouyancy device(s) available as a pin hole could be a serious problem. I am wearing a strong wing, a drysuit, and carrying a strong lift bag anyhow, but someone else who is negative without similar equipment could have a problem surfacing.

Think in terms of your weighting being negative to start with, then you flood your drysuit. Can you surface?

BTW: This scenario is one to think about during wing selection. If you are diving a drysuit, can the wing lift you in a flooded suit? If not you should probably get more lift.

[PerroneFord]

it has provisions for a crotch strap (the plate I saw had the slot)

It has provision for a 1" crotch strap which isn't what the rest of the community uses. Two inch crotch straps are the norm. Also the D-Rings are attached to the plate. This is a HUGE no no for penetration diving. Did you read Shadow Divers?

I can't say its the finest thing since sliced bread, but it warants a few dives to test it and see if it cuts the mustard or if its just another gadgety item.

From what I remember, they felt it was just a poor attempt to improve on the simple backplate. They did mention it was very shiny though.

I just like the harness rollers, they're so simplistic in idea and design, can't beleive noone else has ever done that before.

Why? What do they add over slots? And what happens when they jam?

[PerroneFord]

Think in terms of your weighting being negative to start with, then you flood your drysuit. Can you surface?

BTW: This scenario is one to think about during wing selection. If you are diving a drysuit, can the wing lift you in a flooded suit? If not you should probably get more lift.

Does a flooded suit weigh more in water than a non-flooded suit? I suppose if you dive with your drysuit full of air, and that gets replaced with water, you'll sink. However, if you are diving with a common config, and have a balanced rig, you are only negative by 6-15 pounds. If you have even a small doubles wing of 45# you should be MORE then covered. Generally we dive 55-60# wings for steels.

[Geek]

Single tanks and, while I don't have my tanks yet, I will be getting steel. The diving I have done is with steel. What I can tell you is with a single tank I need more than 10 lbs even with the steel tank and a steel BP/W. I am shockingly bouyant - suppose that means I need a diet! LOL!

I'll interpret "more than 10lbs" as 12 lbs for illustration. Simply switching to the BP/W, with an AL plate, will probably result in a drop of 6 lbs. That was my experience. Going to double tanks will drop another 4 lbs when the tanks are near empty. This leaves you with only 2 lbs of ditchable weight. I would advise you to seriously consider AL rather than the diet.

Nope - sorry! Guess I really am bouyant! I dove with a BP/W with a steel plate and a steel tank and still needed more than 10 lbs of ditchable weight. Granted, I do not have a tri-lam drysuit so my suit maybe adding to this.

With this being said, I also need quite a bit of weight when in my wetsuit (I always need more than they think I will need). I have learned this through trial and error. Generally, in my 3 mm, with a BC and aluminum tank, I tend to need 14 lbs. I am just one of those people who doesn't like to sink...

Those two descriptions don't seem to mesh. Starting with the 14 lbs for 3mm wetsuit, aluminum tank and BC, I would expect you to need less weight with a BP/W and steel tank, even with the drysuit, but you seem to need close to the same amount.

As a result, I need to ask about the drysuit. What is it, what undergarment are you using? Are you new to drysuit use? Are you using the drysuit for bouyancy, or filling it just enough to avoid squeeze and using the BC for bouyancy?

Are you letting the air out of the drysuit at the surface? One problem could be trying to get down with a bunch of air in the suit. I generally enter the water with as little air in the suit as possible. Off a boat that means hunkering down and letting air out at the neck. At Dutch, where you can walk into the water, I just wade out to chest deep and vent at the neck. Once I am down 15 feet or so, then I can give the suit a shot of air for comfort.

[cmt489]

As a result, I need to ask about the drysuit. What is it, what undergarment are you using? Are you new to drysuit use? Are you using the drysuit for bouyancy, or filling it just enough to avoid squeeze and using the BC for bouyancy?

The suit is a compressed neoprene. The undergarmets are Bare CT200. Sometimes I add additional undergarmets. Not using the suit for bouyancy, just enough to prevent squeeze - after all, I don't want a faster ascent than I am bargaining for!

Are you letting the air out of the drysuit at the surface? One problem could be trying to get down with a bunch of air in the suit.

I try to enter the water with no air in my suit. While I have not perfected it (as I am still fairly new to my drysuit) I do my best.

[Geek]

Think in terms of your weighting being negative to start with, then you flood your drysuit. Can you surface?

BTW: This scenario is one to think about during wing selection. If you are diving a drysuit, can the wing lift you in a flooded suit? If not you should probably get more lift.

Does a flooded suit weigh more in water than a non-flooded suit? I suppose if you dive with your drysuit full of air, and that gets replaced with water, you'll sink. However, if you are diving with a common config, and have a balanced rig, you are only negative by 6-15 pounds. If you have even a small doubles wing of 45# you should be MORE then covered. Generally we dive 55-60# wings for steels.

A suit that isn't flooded will be positively bouyant. How bouyant depends on how much air. A flooded suit not only loses that bouyancy, but you are now trying to lift the water in the suit, which isn't going to vent. Depending on how tight the fit of the suit and how much water we are talking about, you could easily be looking at a 15-20 lb swing in bouyancy. One gallon of water weighs 10 lbs and you now have to lift it. It is in the suit, not part of the outside environment.

If you are new to drysuit use I suggest flooding the suit in a pool, with a buddy, and making sure you can get yourself back to the surface. If your wing feels marginal, or can't lift you, then get a stronger wing.

Edited by Geek, 27 March 2007 - 02:51 PM.

[Geek]

As a result, I need to ask about the drysuit. What is it, what undergarment are you using? Are you new to drysuit use? Are you using the drysuit for bouyancy, or filling it just enough to avoid squeeze and using the BC for bouyancy?

The suit is a compressed neoprene. The undergarmets are Bare CT200. Sometimes I add additional undergarmets. Not using the suit for bouyancy, just enough to prevent squeeze - after all, I don't want a faster ascent than I am bargaining for!

Are you letting the air out of the drysuit at the surface? One problem could be trying to get down with a bunch of air in the suit.

I try to enter the water with no air in my suit. While I have not perfected it (as I am still fairly new to my drysuit) I do my best.

I would avoid the additional undergarments. If you need something warmer than the Bare, then get a different one.

Next question: Where do you have the exhaust valve set? I enter the water with mine fully open and close it a few clicks before adding any air, generally about 15-20 feet down. My son leaves his all the way open all the time. If you have the exhaust valve more than four clicks from fully open, then you are probably getting too much air in the suit.

Something is causing you to use too much weight in the drysuit vs. the weight you use diving wet.

[nydiver]

it has provisions for a crotch strap (the plate I saw had the slot)

It has provision for a 1" crotch strap which isn't what the rest of the community uses. Two inch crotch straps are the norm. Also the D-Rings are attached to the plate. This is a HUGE no no for penetration diving. Did you read Shadow Divers?

I can't say its the finest thing since sliced bread, but it warants a few dives to test it and see if it cuts the mustard or if its just another gadgety item.

From what I remember, they felt it was just a poor attempt to improve on the simple backplate. They did mention it was very shiny though.

I just like the harness rollers, they're so simplistic in idea and design, can't beleive noone else has ever done that before.

Why? What do they add over slots? And what happens when they jam?

1. the slots have been widened since november for those who choose to use a 2" strap.

2. Its not a simple plate, it attempts to address issues for wreckers not necessarily for cavers

3. Its no longer shiny (matte finish for scratch resistance since november)

4. The D-rings are attached to the plate, is that any different than being attached to the belt?

5. No I didn't read that book, but I must imagine it had to do with someone's gear becoming entangled or attached in someway, or you wouldn't have referenced it. Everyone can have a bad day, and in this sport at this level, Poop Happens. How about you? Ever had a near death experience as a result of your stage d-rings catching something? Do you know someone who honestly has?

Look its off subject, but every area has a few stories of the one who didn't surface, That's the chance people in this sport take. Anything can happen at anytime, Do I think this plate is going to be the reason I die, NO, I'm the reason I die, I choose to make the dive or not.

6. The rollers allow the diver to make the harness snug, no time is wasted messing about trying to tug the harness thru the slots, its also re-adjustable in the water. It definatly will make the harness tighter to the diver than slots. The design is overly simple and is not easily jammed (only way I could see would be to saltwater dive it for a while and never clean the gear, hence it jams due to an incredible amount of corrosion on the all SS parts)

The bottom line is you poo poo the idea because its different, you have never dove it, you don't have any direct knowledge of who has, or why they dumped it if they did. Reading blogs and factory smears on forums is one thing, but to actually use the gear is quite another thing. I'd be happy to send you the plate after I dive it a few times so you may have first hand knowledge and then you can pass judgement.

[BubbleBoy]

Well I feel silly, I took a deluxe harness from Zeagle at BTS (bill is in the mail to the shop), and now I'm getting a Crital Aspect Pteradactyl (sp?) plate to test dive. For those who missed BTS and have never seen this you need to take a looky (www.criticalaspect.com) it looks wide as the deco-stage bottle d-rings are hung off the plate, but neater is next to them are harness rollers. The idea is the shoulders open wide and once your in, you pull the waist straps like normal and BAM its tight as a drum. I think that's pretty neat, only thing I suggested was eliminating the cross at the shoulders and putting in a rivet or flush bolt to hold the straps from sliding in the plates shoulder slots (those in the know will get the idea).

On the zeagle its just another harness system, like most of the generic plates, but it also does singles with no adapters, not a big deal, but it does do it.

I did see the Pteradactyl at the BTS and spoke with the inventor about it for some time. THere are some interesting innovations on both the plate and harness, the most notable being those rollers. They are nice, even when you are just getting in and out of the harness, since you can get some temporary slack in the sholder straps very easily.

I have already set up my BP with rollers mounted right between the bottom web slots. Provides a similar funtion to the Pteradactyl design. This allows you the option to either use the rollers or the slots. I did need to drill four 1/4" holes in the plate, but, as someone pointed out already, not a tough job if its aluminum. After that, it's all just Home Depot hardware. I'll try to get some pics up.