40 replies to this topic

[Basslet]

Well, like I told Kamala in a PM, I was just kind of in a pissy mood yesterday and the pricing structure hit a nerve with me yesterday. I know all about the benefits of diving with SD. I met one of my best buddies on a NC wreck trip and we went to Thailand together and are going to Wakatobi in 2008. I fully understand and appreciate the logistics of arranging trips for people from all over. I commend the people who volunteer to schlep people around. I try to help SD out when I can (as little as it is) because I think Kamala is a great person. But honestly, if I'm paying top dollar for a trip, I don't expect to have to volunteer to run it too. That's just me. I'm a selfish Beotch.

[Latitude Adjustment]

As Ellen said you can also travel with a group and save money. I've done some trips where a group charters the boat, that requires someone with a high credit limit to use their cc to hold the boat. There is a group on D2D that does an annual Truth trip but the wife of the original organizer put her foot down when she saw the boat on the credit card.
The benifit there is the group saves money by selling the free bunk given to the trip leader, the danger is if you don't fill the boat then everyone needs to pony up more money for those empty bunks and now you are paying more than retail. It's happened to me once so far.

[Walter]

I've done some trips where a group charters the boat, that requires someone with a high credit limit to use their cc to hold the boat.

No it doesn't. There are ways to make it run quite nicely without anyone ever being accountable for more than the cost of their own trip. I know because I've done it. OTOH, this is not the venue to discuss how to run our own trips.

[WreckWench]

As usual it is always interesting to see what people think and one thing is for certain about having an internet forum as your customer service department...you will get feedback and that feedback will be loud and clear!

First off I'd like to address a few issues.

1. Originally my post in the Galapagos thread said that the EV boat was less than other operators in the area and Chinacat46 called me on that statement. He was right...the EV boat is actually more than Agressor for essentially the same trip and certainly more than some of the other operators in the area. EV's boats are always less than their competition (until this boat) and one of the reasons we use them...they are a great value for less money. However being a new boat in this venue they changed their model and I was not aware. Since I was wrong I modified the posts involved so as to not continue to create unnecessary controversary. I notified the original poster that I had modified the post and why but apparently he did not get my email. While we are not bound to notify a member if we change their posts, it is our practice to do so whenever we can out of trust and respect. I am sorry he did not get my email notifying him.

2. As someone mentioned we work very hard to offer trips for all price ranges on the site and for all skill levels as well as a varieity of different trips. Some of these trips are well below what you'll find ANYWHERE else on the web. For example our Belize trip is $1495 if you are active duty military and either $1595 or $1695 depending if you were a premier member and signed up early etc. The boat's price is $1795.(click here) When and where we can pass on discounts we do it! In this case anywhere from $100 to $300 off.

While we can not discount every trip (although we'd like too) we strive to either be less, the same or only slightly more than what you can do it for yourself or via another entity. The only exception is often your local diveclub. However they usually do 1-2 trips a year not 12-15. You may or may not be able to travel when the club trip is going and if they don't get enough members to fill the boat they often cancel the trip. For that matter so do most diveshops. SingleDivers.com accepts the risk of running these trips and protecting your vacation. If you sign up for a trip it will run. I have personally lost thousands of dollars to honor this committment to your vacation and will continue to do so. This is totally unique to SingleDivers.com.

3. A comment was made that 'you shouldn't have to pay top dollar and then volunteer on the trip." I'd like to clarify that statement a bit further. We have two trips that are so unique because we have figured out how to enjoy what up until now has been a 'local's insider secret' and that is the Texas Flower Gardens and our NC Wreck & Shark Diving trips. In order to get as many non-locals on these trips as we can we help to coordinate local transport or food on a boat that wouldn't normally be there etc. And for the record these trips are break even and often 'loss leader' trips, hence the 'volunteer component' in these two particular venues. Ellen's first trip with us was to North Carolina hence her comment. However most of our trips require nothing from the diver other than to show up, dive and have a great time. We ensure that there are plenty of 'meets and greets', activities both above and below, birthdays and significant dives are celebrated as well as any problem resolution that may be needed on the trip if you let us know there is a problem. So no matter what you paid for the trip, you can be assured it was the best we could provide and the next one will be even better based on what we learned from the last one.

4. And finally on this subject, our goal is to GO DIVING and not just talk about diving. Our primary focus is to give you lots of ways to meet other divers, find that special buddy that you want to go diving with as Ellen has and ultimately even save you money on your individual travel with a first class travel team who can use our growing clout in the industry to pass on more savings to our members....ESPECIALLY in our individual and small group travel services. Be watching for more exciting news in this arena as we expand our travel team again this month to bring on a Dive Industry veteran to help our members beat their best travel deals!

So as we stretch to offer you more and more varied destinations each and every month and each and every year, we also have to deliver 'home run' first rate trips that you have come to expect. Trust me folks, that is not easy. And while I'm at it, I have to have a crystal ball to know exactly what will sell and where people want to dive! Yes this entity has to generate income to cover its expenses. Currently the expenses exceed the income. Many people wonder how this can be when travel is so expensive. Afterall we all know that if a merchant sells us a widget for $2 that they paid $1 for it and are making $1 profit. Unfortunately in the dive and travel industry if you sell an item for $100 it costs you $80 to $90 to deliver or produce it. Yes average margins are 10-20% and that is not on all items. Airfare has no margin on it and when we do find some contract air for $50 to $100 off the published price we pass that entire savings onto our divers so that they will take the trip and fill the spot. However we have worked to find it, offer it, deliver it and account for it...yet we do so at a loss to pass these savings onto our members. Some have noted that groups will get a free spot. That is true and that spot goes to the trip leader and covers either diving only, or diving and hotel. It never covers air nor food (unless on a liveaboard of course) so often the 'profit' on the trip goes to cover airfare and other expenses. However, as we grow and develop volume with our suppliers, we are slowly getting better rates...however our expenses seem to leap in tandem with our income increases. Tradeshows cost of thousands of dollars for travel, booth rental, hotels, food, flyers, give aways etc. Other expenses such as inventory costs for the few items we sell and give away keep growing as we grow.

So all in all, most people do not get into the scuba industry to make money, rather they get into the industry to pursue a passion and hope that they can break even. But the truth is, I've made over 6 figures for many years in corporate America and was always frustrated because I couldn't go diving enough. Now I make a fraction of that, have two jobs to support myself, have never been more poor monetarily in my life and yet I'm happier then I've ever been. I love what I'm doing and we are providing a valuable service for the single, solo and buddyless traveler. Oh yes...and many have made great friends, some have found wonderful dive buddies and a few have found their ultimate mate. So all in all at the end of the day its all good.

And may I all for your patronage regardless of what we are...and may we continue to grow to become even more unique and special to our members. Kamala

Edited by WreckWench, 11 April 2007 - 10:53 AM.

[WreckWench]

Is SingleDivers.com a business or a club?

You all bring up very interesting observations.

A few thoughts along those lines...

1. All dive clubs while not usually for profit are a small business if they pay bills, have fund raisers and handle money to pay vendors etc.
2. Dive clubs fall into several categories...independent, shop sponsored, internet based etc.
3. A business implies that it out to survive from month to month and year to year. It implies that its intention is to operate beyond a loss or breakeven status.

Webster defines business as...

a : a usually commercial or mercantile activity engaged in as a means of livelihood : TRADE, LINE <in the restaurant business> b : a commercial or sometimes an industrial enterprise; also : such enterprises <the business district> c : dealings or transactions especially of an economic nature : PATRONAGE <took their business elsewhere.

So some basic pros and cons of typical dive clubs and diving businesses...

Dive Clubs:

Pros:

1. Members meet as a group for a shared activity or to faciliate a common interest in this case diving.
2. Work is done by volunteers so gives members a chance to help, volunteer, and be a part of the group in different ways.
3. Trips are usually set up 'at cost' and any free spots for volume booking are split or shared amoung the group members resulting in a cheaper price.
4. Clubs are fun and allow you to get to know others like yourself.

Cons:

1. Volunteers can be hard to find and usually change from year to year.
2. Trips require a lot of work and the trip leader(s) often do a great deal of work with no reward nor compensation.
3. Trips also require deposits and financial risk. Often clubs have to cancel a trip because they can't get enough members to go or they may charge over retail for an unsold spot when that loss is divided amoung the members.
4. Clubs usually can only offer 1-2 trips a year which may or may not be when you can go or where you want to go.
5. Dive clubs rarely are comprised of all single and married but buddyless divers therefore rooming and dive buddy issues may arise.

Dive Businesses:

Pros:

1. They are by intent designed to be around month after month, year after year with similar consistency and offerings.
2. If they have a good track record you may feel more confident booking with a business rather than a dive club. (If the club is an extension of a dive business then you may have the best of both worlds.)
3. A business will strive to offer as many services as it can to increase its viability and meet the needs of its patrons.
4. You have more recourse against a business should you need it.
5. Staff is generally more reliable as they are compensated to do a job.


Cons:

1, You may pay more for something from a business than you would from a club.
2. You may lose the 'fun' element being a business that you might not being a club.
3. While staff is generally more reliable since they are compensated to do a job, they are still only as good as reliable help is available.
4. Since a shop/business needs to operate at a profilt, many activities that they might like to do for charity or for free, they can not do.
5. Businesses will often do things out of necessity to survive including cancelling trips if there are not enough people on them, limit offerings to only 'profitable' trips, running the same trips over and over again where they have a track record and presumeably make more money, etc.


Why not a combo???

So why can't an entity exist that is a combination? A club that is run like a business? Or a business that acts like a club?

Advantages as we see them to whatever SingleDivers.com is are:

1. Thousands of members with shared interests from all over the world sharing a common passion and meeting one another via trips, events, and activities.
2. Travel discounts as the group grows that are passed onto the group whenever possible in the form of discounts, rebates and lower pricing.
3. The chance to dive with other single and buddyless divers JUST LIKE YOU so you aren't the third wheel or fifth wheel on a trip someplace. And you don't have to bring your own buddy to have a great roommate and dive buddy on SingleDivers.com
4. The chance to see who is on a trip BEFORE you commit to going.
5. The guarantee of a same sex roommate and appropriate dive buddy.
6. The chance to save money on your own travel by letting our travel specialists beat your best deal.
7. Contract savings on air passed onto our members whenever available and possible.
8. An organization that has combined the fun elements of a club and social group with the business elements needed to bring you 1-2 dive trips a month all over the world!

Now that is priceless!

[Basslet]

Kamala you are going to be a great Jewish mother someday. You can truly make a person feel guilty. In fact, you're a better Jewish mother than I am.

[chinacat46]

you know the difference between a jewish grandmother and vulture?

A: A vulture waits till your dead before eating your heart out.

[Basslet]

you know the difference between a jewish grandmother and vulture?

A: A vulture waits till your dead before eating your heart out.

Actually though, it should be mother, not grandmother. With Jewish Grandmothers, the grand kids can do no wrong and it's the parents' fault.

[Brinybay]

Well, I don't go on SD trips. Not that I think they are overpriced, but for the same reason I don't go on my local dive club trips, a couple grand to spend on trips is beyond my means. Even if I did have the extra cash, I have other priorities for it, (dive toys, for one) but that's all beside the point.

I have access to a lot of great (free) shore diving sites, all w/in 20-45 minute drive. I have been on a couple local trips in the past, one was through a LDS, the other I went with one other person that I knew. What I learned is this - I'll never, ever go on a trip with strangers again. Hence if I ever do find a "sugar-mommy" (fat chance), I would not go through a LDS. It would either be SD or my local dive club. Our local club (Marker Buoy Dive Club) regularly schedules 4-6 trips and dozens of local dives per year.

As far as organizing and free berths, I'm a firm believer in he/she who does the work, gets to reap the bens. Whether they choose to pass on the savings or use the free berth for themselves is up to them, I don't begrudge either way.

Also, if I understand my SD history correctly (Kamala correct me if I'm wrong, and forgive me if I'm revealing too much personal info), it was started as a way to deal with a broken heart. Apparently she has succeeded wonderfully, I commend her for it.

Edited by Brinybay, 11 April 2007 - 01:51 PM.

[Dive_Girl]

I have some comments on dive club trips.

I am affiliated with a dive shop, one that runs trips from time to time often based on customer requests.

We also have local dive clubs and some of the clubs run trips for time to time based on member requests. At the end of the day, the club might be able to trickle down some trip savings, but it never fails all the work falls to ONE or TWO people. Based on the club model, they are not to partake in the goodies - these must be spread to the group, but it never seems that the work is spread evenly to the group. These one or two people are rarely ever thanked and they receive most of the complaints.

Bottom line, if I am working to put a trip together, I'd rather run a trip for a shop/business.

Many trip goers have no idea what it takes to put trips together. Where I dive, certification weekends require overnights 3 hours North of where we live. It is a simple 2-2.5 day trip yet the work is ENORMOUS! Lodging accomodations, food accomodations, beach access, proximity of compressors/dive shops, transportation, agendas, info gathering, info dissemination, emails, telephone calls, communication, coordination...etc. And all this for only a hand full of days barely 3 hours from home. And again there is rarely ever a thankyou if the weekend goes smoothly, but I certainly hear it if it doesn't. I can swallow this thanklessness because it is part of the job I signed on to do, which is teach classes and take people diving. If it weren't my job, quit frankly I wouldn't have the patience.

Now extend this scenario to a dive trip, similar to what SD puts together and make sure to double, triple, quadruple the work.

I am an avid diver in the PNW. I teach scuba. I work for a local dive shop. Our dive shop offers trips. I dive almost every weekend. Do you think I lack finding dive buddies!? Simple answer is no. So why do I particpate in SD? Because SD offers dive, trip, educational, and social opportunities beyond what my shop and local area does. I have increased my international network of dive contacts, dive buddies, and friends. And, I didn't work that hard to do it - it's because of this forum and because of dive trips I've attended.

Thanks WW and SD team.

[Brinybay]

I have some comments on dive club trips.

Based on the club model, they are not to partake in the goodies - these must be spread to the group,

Ours doesn't. It's up to the trip organizer. Of course, there are always those who grumble about it, but f'em, if they don't like it, they don't have to go.

[finGrabber]

I have some comments on dive club trips.

Based on the club model, they are not to partake in the goodies - these must be spread to the group,

Ours doesn't. It's up to the trip organizer. Of course, there are always those who grumble about it, but f'em, if they don't like it, they don't have to go.

that would depend on if the club is set up as a 501-C

I think the clubs here in Dallas are all 501-C. I don't dive with the clubs here because of the club politics

One of the reasons I dive exclusively with SD is Kamala always tries to make everyone feel welcome and included in the groups activities. I've haven't had many dive club members ever ask my name at meetings, so why dive with them? Just to save a few bucks? I work hard for my vacation time and my diving time...I won't spend it with people who act like I don't even exist

[chinacat46]

you know the difference between a jewish grandmother and vulture?

A: A vulture waits till your dead before eating your heart out.

Actually though, it should be mother, not grandmother. With Jewish Grandmothers, the grand kids can do no wrong and it's the parents' fault.

Maybe your grandmother but not mine.

[Basslet]

you know the difference between a jewish grandmother and vulture?

A: A vulture waits till your dead before eating your heart out.

Actually though, it should be mother, not grandmother. With Jewish Grandmothers, the grand kids can do no wrong and it's the parents' fault.

Maybe your grandmother but not mine.

Yeah, my grandma was like that. And my son's grandmother too.

[ScubaHawk]

1. Thousands of members with shared interests from all over the world sharing a common passion and meeting one another via trips, events, and activities.
2. Travel discounts as the group grows that are passed onto the group whenever possible in the form of discounts, rebates and lower pricing.
3. The chance to dive with other single and buddyless divers JUST LIKE YOU so you aren't the third wheel or fifth wheel on a trip someplace. And you don't have to bring your own buddy to have a great roommate and dive buddy on SingleDivers.com
4. The chance to see who is on a trip BEFORE you commit to going.
5. The guarantee of a same sex roommate and appropriate dive buddy.
6. The chance to save money on your own travel by letting our travel specialists beat your best deal.
7. Contract savings on air passed onto our members whenever available and possible.
8. An organization that has combined the fun elements of a club and social group with the business elements needed to bring you 1-2 dive trips a month all over the world!

You know if you change the wording on #5 from 'same' to 'different' I bet the trips would sell out faster.
Just trying to be helpful...