93 replies to this topic

[gcbryan]

Since this came up in another thread I thought it would make a good topic for a thread of it's own.

Since ultimately we only have control (hopefully) over ourselves isn't self-reliance the key to remaining safe as a diver? If our attitude is that "I'm there for my buddy but I'm not counting on my buddy being there for me but I hope he is" wouldn't that be the best of both worlds?

Prepare to handle things yourself and be delighted when at a tough moment you find out that you do indeed have some assistence.

Relying on others at a critical moment to react in a perfect manner doesn't seem like the best plan. As long as you don't let your buddy skills deteriorate due to your self-reliance I can't think of a reason for not being self-reliant. I've certainly observed, read, and heard about situations where someone was put at a disadvantage and was surprised to learn that others didn't react as they had hoped.

My gut feeling is also that in many cases even with an attentive buddy it's just not possible for anyone else to react fast enough in those few cases where it just seems as if someone's number is up. Where diver's take a gulp of water through panic or sudden health issues there is nothing that even the most attentive buddy can do at that point but it seems in many of the diver death cases that was the first notice that something was wrong.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this matter?

[WreckWench]

First GREAT THREAD!!!

This will be very enlightening and I look forward to participating in it as well! -ww

[gcbryan]

First GREAT THREAD!!!

This will be very enlightening and I look forward to participating in it as well! -ww

What does that say regarding my past threads

[pir8]

Honestly when I'm in the H2O as an Instructor I feel like I'm worse than solo diving because OW students are still in the wide eyed stage and if something were to happen I really don't expect that they are going to be able to help me. So I better be able to help myself.

[WreckWench]

First GREAT THREAD!!!

This will be very enlightening and I look forward to participating in it as well! -ww

What does that say regarding my past threads

Hee! Hee! That didn't read right...I meant to say...first off...great thread! Oh well...blame it on being

[ScubaDadMiami]

Honestly when I'm in the H2O as an Instructor I feel like I'm worse than solo diving because OW students are still in the wide eyed stage and if something were to happen I really don't expect that they are going to be able to help me. So I better be able to help myself.

BINGO!!!! This is one reason that the solo thing is not such a big deal to me in the first place. The instructor is in even worse shape when doing check out dives and the like than if going it alone. So, solo diving can actually be a step up in many instances including cases where the alternative is diving with a poor buddy.

[pir8]

Honestly when I'm in the H2O as an Instructor I feel like I'm worse than solo diving because OW students are still in the wide eyed stage and if something were to happen I really don't expect that they are going to be able to help me. So I better be able to help myself.

BINGO!!!! This is one reason that the solo thing is not such a big deal to me in the first place. The instructor is in even worse shape when doing check out dives and the like than if going it alone. So, solo diving can actually be a step up in many instances including cases where the alternative is diving with a poor buddy.

I'm waiting to get flamed for having students that are wide eyed and not perfact before I take them in OpenH2O. If this were another site I'm sure I would be already.

[casematic]

Bits of this line of thinking have been in past threads and are definitely worth stating again.... After all, can you really count on someone in a true emergency.... they might be engrossed in looking at a shark or something else...or get separated unintenionally just by the conditions ... I think that its best to dive with the attitude of being a solo diver even when you have a buddy (you can be attentive, but dive like you can only depend on yourself... because that may very well be the case in an emergency... I even carry a small supplemental air source ... just enough to keep from panicing in a situation (should one arise) so that I can think clearly.... that and more dive education... the more you know, the less likely a situation is to get out of control due to panic or lack of knowing what to do (at least thats my opinion)... Good topic...

[WreckWench]

Bits of this line of thinking have been in past threads and are definitely worth stating again.... After all, can you really count on someone in a true emergency.... they might be engrossed in looking at a shark or something else...or get separated unintenionally just by the conditions ... I think that its best to dive with the attitude of being a solo diver even when you have a buddy (you can be attentive, but dive like you can only depend on yourself... because that may very well be the case in an emergency... I even carry a small supplemental air source ... just enough to keep from panicing in a situation (should one arise) so that I can think clearly.... that and more dive education... the more you know, the less likely a situation is to get out of control due to panic or lack of knowing what to do (at least thats my opinion)... Good topic...

Excellent post KC...and great practical thoughts on the subject!

More training and redundancy of all kinds will help make you more self sufficient and therefore a better dive buddy to yourself and your buddy!

[WreckWench]

Honestly when I'm in the H2O as an Instructor I feel like I'm worse than solo diving because OW students are still in the wide eyed stage and if something were to happen I really don't expect that they are going to be able to help me. So I better be able to help myself.

BINGO!!!! This is one reason that the solo thing is not such a big deal to me in the first place. The instructor is in even worse shape when doing check out dives and the like than if going it alone. So, solo diving can actually be a step up in many instances including cases where the alternative is diving with a poor buddy.

I'm waiting to get flamed for having students that are wide eyed and not perfact before I take them in OpenH2O. If this were another site I'm sure I would be already.

You will not get flamed here nor will your thoughts be subject to disrespect. As a dive community we will never learn to improve if that type of atmosphere were to be allowed.

If you choose to participate with respect to your fellow divers then you will recieve respect from your fellow divers.

p.s. I have slightly edited your post to remove reference to any specific site.

[rahuck]

Hmmm..... I guess I should have read this thread before adding to the other....


The last thing I would want to do would be to put my buddy at risk because of my problem. I expect to fix it myself and, as best I can, prepare myself to do so before every dive.

Diving with a good buddy makes the dive more enjoyable but does not relieve me of my primary responsibility of keeping myself safe. This responsibility extends to keeping my buddy safe also. I am not safe if WE get into a situation where I am put at risk by a problem they are experiencing. So, it makes sense for me to do everything I can to prevent a problem my buddy may experience.


On a totally unrelated topic....Nice avatar WW

[VADiver]

So what exactly does being self reliant mean in diving? I think divers need to be squared away—that is proper training, proper mind set, proper attitude, and proper equipment. Diving with a squared away team does not relieve a diver of his personal responsibility to the team, nor is self reliance a substitute to having a squared away team. Both are equally important to the successful completion of a dive.

If a diver has an emergency at depth, he should be able to deal with it himself—but if he can’t he has a buddy to help out. In this way each diver has the ability to solve or mitigate an emergency, but also has the team to assist. Once the emergency is taken care of the team makes the decision to continue or thumb the dive.

So in my opinion self reliance means the responsibility of each member of the team to be squared away for that particular dive.

(For example…in Iraq I want everyone I’m with to have the proper attitude. If something happens, each team member needs to be able to handle himself—but work for the overall benefit of the team. You can be a war hero, but you can’t win it alone.)

Edited by VADiver, 12 July 2007 - 05:34 PM.

[rahuck]

IMO being self-reliant means that I expect to get myself out of trouble - I am NOT relying on my buddy first and myself second.

[WreckWench]

On a totally unrelated topic....Nice avatar WW

Why thank you! Not sure which one as they rotate but I'll take the complement regardless!

We now return to your regularily scheduled discussion...

[gcbryan]

So what exactly does being self reliant mean in diving? I think divers need to be squared away—that is proper training, proper mind set, proper attitude, and proper equipment. Diving with a squared away team does not relieve a diver of his personal responsibility to the team, nor is self reliance a substitute to having a squared away team. Both are equally important to the successful completion of a dive.

If a diver has an emergency at depth, he should be able to deal with it himself—but if he can’t he has a buddy to help out. In this way each diver has the ability to solve or mitigate an emergency, but also has the team to assist. Once the emergency is taken care of the team makes the decision to continue or thumb the dive.

So in my opinion self reliance means the responsibility of each member of the team to be squared away for that particular dive.

(For example…in Iraq I want everyone I’m with to have the proper attitude. If something happens, each team member needs to be able to handle himself—but work for the overall benefit of the team. You can be a war hero, but you can’t win it alone.)

There's also the issue of whether one always has a squared away team. In recreational diving it may not happen and may not be as essential as in technical diving or as in the military where there is a mission.

When I used to do more mountain climbing in a roped up team environment I thought of the team first and myself second even though I was personally prepared. There was a team mission and the team depended on me and I on them. I would imagine that's the way it is in the military and much the way it would have to be on a team penetrating a cave.

That same standard may not be neccessary or may severely limit dive options in a recreational dive setting. In fact everyone may not like diving in a recreational setting in a more structured team concept. It has more to do with personality types. Some others will disagree with this of course.

I think a good analogy may be in acting. You can have two great actors. One prepares and rehearses his role over and over and yet gives a very natural performance. Another great actor under those circumstances may learn the background material but give his best performance for the first time on camera and for him rehearsing over and over would not result in the most natural performance. Not everyone want to be in a squared away team with team goals in a recreational environment.

Edited by gcbryan, 12 July 2007 - 06:23 PM.