93 replies to this topic

[shadragon]

This board is not centered around any type of diver other than the single, solo and buddyless diver. They can be recreational divers, new divers, commercial divers, cave divers, deep divers etc. The largest % of divers in general happen to be recreational divers but this community gives ALL of us a great chance to learn more...expand our skills and enter into new realms in our diving experience.

Exactly right. You have to adapt yourself to whatever level of diving you are doing. Cave diving @ 300 ft and U/W photography on a 20 foot reef have a different set of requirements and the methods to address those can be quite different. Talk to everyone you can, read everything you can and prepare yourself as best you can with gear and training before you get moist. No one person knows everything and that is where the community comes in. Someone else has probably been there and done that.

The routine, the plan, the proper gear and training will be different for whatever dive(s) you and your buds are doing. Adopt, adapt and improve...

[ScubaDrew]

What if my bcd starts inflating?

How often do practice disconnecting your inflator?

I would not say often as is every dive or even every other dive, but I do pull it on occasion, as well as manually inflate my bcd. In fact, I try to manually inflate on the surface more that I use the autoinflator, maybe a 3-1 ratio.

What if my reg freezes?

How often you do practice feathing the valve on your tank?

I have to say, I never have.

Can I get to my buddy

Do you practice getting to your buddy with your reg out? Do you speak to them and prepare for it? Do you practice air shares regularly? At depth?

The person I used to dive with regularly, we discussed air sharing, and did practice a few times, but we never "tested" each other.

am I too deep for a safe ascent?

A safe ascent can be made from nearly any depth. Provided you manage your air.

Not if I can't draw a breath from my reg at all. Unlikely if I am watching my air, which I do OCD like, but you never know. I am in the process of getting a truely redundant air source, as I am getting interested in the deeper dives. Up till now most of my diving has been under 40 feet. I am comfortable with buddy diving but I prefer the self rescue as the only person I can count on for sure, is me.

Thinking about problems is a great step. Practicing emergency scenarios provides more assurances.

Yep, and I should probably practice more than I do.

[PerroneFord]

The person I used to dive with regularly, we discussed air sharing, and did practice a few times, but we never "tested" each other.

Part of my (and others') pre-dive routine is to do a real air-share at 10-20ft. This tells you a few things. First, it ensures that that your buddy can actually perform the OOA skill, in mid-water, while buoyant. Second, it gives you a chance to see whether your donation method is understood by your buddy. It also gives you a mouthfeel for their regulator. This could be crucial if they have a seacure, or something else going on. I once did a share like this and found my buddy's octo had a broken mouthpiece. They hadn't noticed it. But I would have taken in a lot of water under poor conditions had I not checked it. In another instance, a diver had a 30" hose on his octo. I literally had my head in his armpit trying to get air. I never dove with him again. I considered it too dangerous, and clearly he had not thought through an emergency situation for his buddy. Scary since his girlfriend is his most regular dive buddy.

...am I too deep for a safe ascent?

Not if I can't draw a breath from my reg at all. Unlikely if I am watching my air, which I do OCD like, but you never know. I am in the process of getting a truely redundant air source, as I am getting interested in the deeper dives. Up till now most of my diving has been under 40 feet.

That why you have a buddy, remember? That's why you you did OOA skills in class. That's why you reserve that "500 psi" the captain told you to be on the boat with. So that you can make a safe ascent from depth, and you don't need to do CESAs if something should go wrong. When did this concept get lost? The pony bottle is a poor substitute for good buddy skills. But as you mentioned earlier, you don't test your buddy, so you have no idea if they could actually perform under pressure. So I understand your fear. My buddies and I test each other regularly. Unannounced. We don't know if the issue is real or not until after we have performed the share. The inability to breathe is the one SURE killer underwater, and yet so few people even practice the scenario...

I am comfortable with buddy diving but I prefer the self rescue as the only person I can count on for sure, is me.

Again, I totally disagree. When things go horribly wrong, the stressed diver is far more prone to mistakes in judgement than anyone else. When a diver runs out of air for whatever reason at depth, they are now stressed. An attentive buddy can and should have a working regulator to them in under 5 seconds. How do I know this? Because I've done it. Dozens of times. And it is the response time my team shoots for. I've been as slow as nine seconds, and as fast as three. Under stress, how fast do you think you could get to your pony bottle reg? Are you sure it's working? Will you have tested that regulator, at depth, on every dive? Will you have monitored it's pressure, at depth, on every dive? Will it be large enough to get you from depth, to the surface, with your safety stop, every time? Is there enough gas in it to give you time to shoot a bag so that the surface knows you have a problem?

Perhaps you've thought these things through. Perhaps not. I find many pony bottle buyers don't and end up with a solution that is unsuitable for the diving they plan. And by the way, make sure that your pony can get both you AND your buddy to the surface safely from depth since it's likely that if you've find yourself low or out of air, he or she will be as well. Or will you narrow your diving to other divers who also carry redundant air?

[WreckWench]

...am I too deep for a safe ascent?

Not if I can't draw a breath from my reg at all. Unlikely if I am watching my air, which I do OCD like, but you never know. I am in the process of getting a truely redundant air source, as I am getting interested in the deeper dives. Up till now most of my diving has been under 40 feet.

That why you have a buddy, remember? That's why you you did OOA skills in class. That's why you reserve that "500 psi" the captain told you to be on the boat with. So that you can make a safe ascent from depth, and you don't need to do CESAs if something should go wrong. When did this concept get lost? The pony bottle is a poor substitute for good buddy skills. But as you mentioned earlier, you don't test your buddy, so you have no idea if they could actually perform under pressure. So I understand your fear. My buddies and I test each other regularly. Unannounced. We don't know if the issue is real or not until after we have performed the share. The inability to breathe is the one SURE killer underwater, and yet so few people even practice the scenario...

Perrone NOTHING was lost. ScubaDrew could be talking about a host of issues that can happen in a nano second leaving him without air...a blown o-ring is one...when my hose sheered off diving a wreck I did not entirely clear as a second one...and others.

Want people to learn then think outside your own experiences or assume that things can go wrong to others even if you've been lucky enough to not have experienced them. If you insult people they will tune out what you have to say...even if it is valuable. And your suggestions are valuable but they get lost in your delivery.

Furthermore, ScubaDrew is a newer diver. He hasn't had the experience that you've had. He is trying to learn and he is doing a great job looking at these issues NOW early in his diving experience. He may not have the ability to drive to a great dive destination on a regular basis like you and others do in cave country and therefore build up a great group of REGULAR dive buddies.

In fact he is most likely on THIS site to meet new dive buddies.

To always assume people have access to great dive buddies or dive teams, grossly ignores the reason most people are on this site....they want and need good buddies. And yes the *great* buddy is and does all the things you list...problem is that we aren't all *great* dive buddies and we all don't have access to *great* dive buddies.

Now enter the real world...and from that perspective ScubaDrew's post make perfect sense. However he is here to learn and learn he can.

As for testing OOG (out of gas) or OOA (out of air) scenarios...your suggestion to talk about it with your dive buddy and PRACTICE it are great. I highly recommend it and usually do it myself but like many others...need to be more diligent in it. I should as others have done...make it part of my dive ritual.

Regarding pony bottles...they are great and many threads have been started on the topic. And I'm sure many more will. Avoid a spare air...(too small and too expensive) and look at a regular pony bottle but check airline restrictions if you are mostly a fly in diver. Of course the proper use of these should include some training but that can easily be worked out...in fact I think you are near Jocassee Lake and I know you can get some training there!

And finally, pony bottles are not a substitute for good or bad buddy skills. However it is a form of redundancy that should complement your buddy skills or lack of your buddy's buddy skills. And it could save your life. It has mine.

As for always relying on great *buddies*...even great ones can't always be there to help you. Several very well respected cavers on this site have given numerous references to instances where a buddy was in front of someone in a narrow passage or a few feet away but silted out or otherwise unable to help. You must rely on yourself first and then your buddy as part of your tool arsenal. For example, if you panic you not only will not be useful to your buddy but you won't be able to help yourself and you limit what your buddy can do for you. If you are narc'd the same applies. And YES these both happen to good, seasoned and experienced divers. So of course they will happen to the rest of us as well.

[ScubaDrew]

Again, I totally disagree. When things go horribly wrong, the stressed diver is far more prone to mistakes in judgement than anyone else. When a diver runs out of air for whatever reason at depth, they are now stressed.An attentive buddy can and should have a working regulator to them in under 5 seconds.

We could go around and around. You have some really excellent points worth much consideration, but here I can argue a bit. You can get your octo into your mouth much faster than you can get the one your buddy is carrying. If you have a seperate system on you, there is now no rush to either get to your buddy or make a safe ascent. Let me ask you, what do you do if you are on one side of a tight restriction and your team is on the other?

My diving in the forseeable future will be limited to 130 feet or less, more often then not less than 80. I will be purchasing a rig that will get me from 130 to the surface with a stop. Anything less is a waste as it won't allow me to self rescue in a safe manner. I don't plan on solo diving, and I hope my buddy is there for me should I assistence, as I hope I am there for them.

[ScubaDrew]

Furthermore, ScubaDrew is a newer diver. He hasn't had the experience that you've had. He is trying to learn and he is doing a great job looking at these issues NOW early in his diving experience. He may not have the ability to drive to a great dive destination on a regular basis like you and others do in cave country and therefore build up a great group of REGULAR dive buddies.

Yeah, pretty much. I got my open water and advanced in 1998, did a buch of dives, almost all of them shallow, and then life got in the way. Now I am back, with a vengeance

My typical buddy is not that interested in local diving anymore, and just about all my other friends or acquiantences don't dive. This site so far has gotten me some good diving in places I haven't been before, plus some new training, and of course an awesome trip coming up in a few weeks. So far stopping by the SD booth at BTS has really paid off!

[WreckWench]

Furthermore, ScubaDrew is a newer diver. He hasn't had the experience that you've had. He is trying to learn and he is doing a great job looking at these issues NOW early in his diving experience. He may not have the ability to drive to a great dive destination on a regular basis like you and others do in cave country and therefore build up a great group of REGULAR dive buddies.

Yeah, pretty much. I got my open water and advanced in 1998, did a buch of dives, almost all of them shallow, and then life got in the way. Now I am back, with a vengeance

My typical buddy is not that interested in local diving anymore, and just about all my other friends or acquiantences don't dive. This site so far has gotten me some good diving in places I haven't been before, plus some new training, and of course an awesome trip coming up in a few weeks. So far stopping by the SD booth at BTS has really paid off!

Cool my dear! And we are lucky to have you! You have brought a fresh and rewarding new perspective to the site. Your questions are insightful and show you want to learn. You will learn a lot from here as we have some incredibably talented divers...GCBryan, TraceMalin, ScubaDadMiami, Dive_Girl, VADiver, to name a few that have participated in this thread or regularily participate in similar threads. And you will learn a lot from Perrone...I know I just busted on him but he is a great guy and is very much like you. He wants to learn and he is very studious in his approach to doing so!

There are no EASY answers. And there are no perfect answers. But you will find lots of good answers from which you can expand your thought processes on and expand your knowledge.

Besides if everyone agreed...it wouldn't be any fun!

[Racer184]

Dive-buddy versus Insta-buddy

The things that Perrone brings up are great ideas. The non-cave divers, like me, can see what points he brings up are relevant and which are not relevant to me when drift diving over a 30' deep reef from a commercial dive boat. Let me use this for example;

...Part of my (and others') pre-dive routine is to do a real air-share at 10-20ft. This tells you a few things. First, it ensures that that your buddy can actually perform the OOA skill, in mid-water, while buoyant. Second, it gives you a chance to see whether your donation method is understood by your buddy ...

This is a great idea which certainly would apply to me in every dive situation I have ever been in. It did get me thinking though.... if I did insist that every insta-buddy do this, what would be my future of diving? One concern is that I would be very often getting back on the boat without actually making a dive (because the buddy could not do it comfortably, or worse yet, I might discover that I am the one that needs practice at this). Another thought I had is that after a few trips that the boat operators would no longer be eager to see me show up at their dock. I do not believe a boat operator could ever stay in business if they did not participate in the insta-buddy program. Without insta-buddies I would only get to dive 2 tanks a year.

I became interested in this site because I have gotten some really horrible insta-buddies. I am absolutely sure that they could only make things worse for me. I suppose there are some divers that think I am a bad insta-buddy. I have intentionally let insta-buddies swim away and out of sight from me. One case was a couple that decided to chase down a turtle. I kept up with them for a minute or so and realized I was over-breathing my regulator. To heck with them, I watched them swim out of sight (100 ft visibility!) then decided to go back to the boat. Therefore I was intentionally buddy-less and glad to be that way. Another case was to a intentionally sunk upside-down barge (Sea Emporer near Deerfield beach). My insta-buddy and I confirmed that neither of us had any training, experience or intent to penetrate this barge. We agreed that neither of us would consider going in. I told him that I would not go inside for any reason, ever. We followed the rope to the wreck (you don't call it an 'anchor line' when you are tied to a wreck, do you?) and he immediately went inside. I hope this guy realizes that under no circumstances would I have tried to help him. I waited, buddyless and completely self-reliant, at the end of this rope until I hit 1000 psi. I did not see my insta-buddy until long after I had changed tanks and eaten my snacks.

Then there are the insta-buddies that try to see how much coral they can destroy by swimming ON the reef, very negative buoyancy. The insta-buddies that rip the coral up trying to get that lobster as I hover above them, watching my spg approach 1000 and wondering how much faster they are using air and NOT looking at their gauge. And insta-buddies that like to poke at blow-fish, chase moray eels, drag their spg on the sand oblivious to the sting-ray partially hidden just ahead.

Why do some insta-buddies get irritated at me? "Hey I was waiting for you on the surface for like 3 minutes... why did you stop down there?" Or "excuse me, but its been a few years since I dove, what are these 'dive tables' people talk about?"

Now, for the other side of the story. I was a worse-than-useless insta-buddy just 3 weeks ago. Short version of the story is that my insta-buddy was right behind me, using compass to go to a tiny wreck just offshore, every 3 or 4 breaths I looked behind me to check on him, sometimes I stood up and waited for him to catch up. Then one check I looked and he was not there. So I turned around, checked my compass then saw him coming straight at me, I turned my body back to the original course and started following him. When we got to the tiny wreck, soon after I started to think this was not my buddy. I lost my buddy. Yes, I did it and it was 100% my fault. I had not taken enough time to really recognize him underwater so I mistook the other diver for my buddy (where was this diver's buddy?). Later I found out that my insta-buddy lost his rental weights and when I didn't get back to him he just went back to shore. He took care of himself. If it had been more serious I would not have been there to help him. For this period of time he was self-reliant.

No excuses here, but I will offer some reasons. This was shallow. I could stand up with my head out of water and see the others. With hindsight I assume that I got complacent because I could just stand up and breathe. Our destination was 12 ft deep; another reason for complacency?

Nothing 'happened' on this dive. It was an opportunity to learn. From now on I will be more thorough about looking at my insta-buddy's gear and be sure that I can identify that one diver from everyone else. This will be tough on a boat of 28 divers. Hmmmmm.... maybe tie a yellow ribbon around his 1st stage? I hope everyone that has to use insta-buddies will do more to recognize each other on all future dives.

Everyone reading this please be sure to understand; I believe in the buddy system if you have a good buddy. But for those of us that only have the insta-buddy system, we MUST become more self-reliant than those that have good dive-buddies.

I assume that the majority of people that read this forum on SINGLEdivers.com are reading it because we are trapped in the insta-buddy program. We, as users of S I N G L E divers.com must learn how to, and implement higher levels or preparation for self-reliance. We have to continue to promote the buddy-system while learning to survive the insta-buddy-system. As long as the insta-buddy system must exist, then we should all be very interested in learning how to better prepare ourselves for our own safety.

Yes, we should practice things with our buddy as Perrone and others suggest. We should also practice and prepare equipment as if we were always solo-divers. This is why I look forward to reading much more from both viewpoints; the viewpoints that promote self-reliance and practicing-with-dive-buddies.

[PerroneFord]

Perrone NOTHING was lost. ScubaDrew could be talking about a host of issues that can happen in a nano second leaving him without air...a blown o-ring is one...when my hose sheered off diving a wreck I did not entirely clear as a second one...and others.

When I say lost, I am not referring to ScubaDrew. I am referring to the attitudes of a great many divers I see and talk to. I've had a blown o-ring scenario. 500ft back in Jackson Blue cave at 95ft. Stuff happens. The question is how do we prepare for it with gear, and skills. My perspective could be totally wrong here, but it seems like people are taking the approach of a "pony bottle" first, and buddy second. When I took OW class, we were taught that our best option was our buddy. My technical training beyond that has emphasized the same. A solid buddy can anticipate problems and be ready with solutions BEFORE things happen. A solid buddy will see that you are about to not clear that wreck's door and will probably shear a knob or hose. A solid buddy will notice that your fins are about to get wrapped up in the line in a cave, and work to prevent a possible catastrophe (I had to do this in Little River Cave Aug. '06). Having redundant air isn't a bad idea per se, I guess I just have problems with it being promoted as a substitute for a good buddy.

If you insult people they will tune out what you have to say...even if it is valuable. And your suggestions are valuable but they get lost in your delivery.

Hmmm, I didn't see that my post was insulting. I wonder if ScubaDrew saw it that way. Someone else PMed me to say they didn't see it as insulting either. Did it really seem insulting to you, WW?

Furthermore, ScubaDrew is a newer diver. He hasn't had the experience that you've had. He is trying to learn and he is doing a great job looking at these issues NOW early in his diving experience. He may not have the ability to drive to a great dive destination on a regular basis like you and others do in cave country and therefore build up a great group of REGULAR dive buddies.

I agree he seems to be doing a great job. Asking questions and getting into these philosophical discussions is a great way to learn. I will vigorously support my position, and I expect others to do the same. Back it up with examples and experience, and we can all benefit. There seems to be a misnomer here. You think I have an opportunity to build up a great group of regular dive buddies? It's taken me 2.5 years to find 3 local divers I'd do a cave dive with and feel comfortable. You have to find someone who shares your ideas about diving, then practice with that person in a pool or pool like setting. Work out the kinks in communication. Understand what each other wants to accomplish in the water. One of the divers in my normal team of three broke our safety rules while diving with another team. We dropped him. Now we are looking for a different third diver, and I think we've found one after 4 months of looking. This stuff isn't easy no matter where you live.

To always assume people have access to great dive buddies or dive teams, grossly ignores the reason most people are on this site....they want and need good buddies. And yes the *great* buddy is and does all the things you list...problem is that we aren't all *great* dive buddies and we all don't have access to *great* dive buddies.

I don't assume anything. For the most part I don't have great dive buddies. Which is why I still do so much open water and shallow diving. My best dive buddy is not cave trained, only cavern. I'd rather limit what I do in the water, and dive with that person, than push a cave dive with someone I don't trust. If I don't have a great dive buddy (weak insta-buddy, or newer diver), then I dive to the level I feel comfortable with them. Great dive buddies usually have to be built. Over time. And in varying conditions and scenarios. I think this site does a great job at trying to provide that for people by allowing folks to talk and compare experiences, and even meet socially with other divers prior to jumping in the water. Since I have not been on an SD trip, I don't know how well it works in practice to prevent the usual insta-buddy issues. From what I hear, it seems to work great.

As for testing OOG (out of gas) or OOA (out of air) scenarios...your suggestion to talk about it with your dive buddy and PRACTICE it are great. I highly recommend it and usually do it myself but like many others...need to be more diligent in it. I should as others have done...make it part of my dive ritual.

I think it's a great thing to do early in the dive. And when it's part of SOP, you aren't likely to forget. And it might just alleviate some fear for that new instabuddy, by knowing they have a solid and competent dive buddy.

Regarding pony bottles...they are great...

I think they "can" be great. Or at least quite helpful. But like anything else, practice with them is required if someone expects them to "save their lives".

As for always relying on great *buddies*...even great ones can't always be there to help you. Several very well respected cavers on this site have given numerous references to instances where a buddy was in front of someone in a narrow passage or a few feet away but silted out or otherwise unable to help. You must rely on yourself first and then your buddy as part of your tool arsenal. For example, if you panic you not only will not be useful to your buddy but you won't be able to help yourself and you limit what your buddy can do for you. If you are narc'd the same applies. And YES these both happen to good, seasoned and experienced divers. So of course they will happen to the rest of us as well.

Yes, even great buddies can't always be there to help you. The question to this is why. If a great buddy can't be there to help you, it should stem from the fact that they are either incapacitated, or somehow restricted. I've read the reports of some of the cavers on this site, and I think they will admit as easily as anyone else, that poor buddy protocol happens in caves as well as open water. The consequences are usually more harsh though. Being able to rely on yourself first is absolutely critical, especially in an overhead. But trained overhead divers take great pains to mitigate the risk. It should be noted that in cave training, passing through restrictions where a buddy might be out of reach for some time, is reserved for the final certification off Full Cave. The previous two courses, do not allow this. In other words, even in this elevated training, circumstances where a buddy is out of reach should only apply to those who have demostrated a mastery off all other skills including self-rescue and rescue of a buddy.

While I agree with your comments on being paniced, I do not necessarily agree with your comments on being narced. I am not saying it doesn't happen. We all know it does. But it is a solvable problem with training and proper diving gas selection. It is an avoidable problem, much like not diving with faulty gear. Many of us choose to take this unnecessary risk, myself included, though I do try to choose my dive buddies VERY carefully, if I am diving to depths where being narced is a good possibility. I broke this rule once, and will never do it again.

[TonyL]

I am a believer in developing individual skills. I think that one should be as proficient as possible to deal with issues that come up. However, it makes sense to me that when you dive with an attentive buddy you have more options available if a problem should arise. This doesn't relieve your own responsibility to be trained and supply your own redundancy, it just adds to your ability to deal with a problem deliberately.

Some readers may recognize "PACE" - Primary, Alternate, Contingency, and Emergency. This is what I strive for in alomost every facet of my life, whether military operations, scuba diving, or supplying toilet paper. It just helps to have options.

[Racer184]

Great dive buddies usually have to be built. Over time

That seems to be an excellent subject for a new, separate forum thread. Something like "How to develop a good dive-buddy"

[PerroneFord]

We could go around and around. You have some really excellent points worth much consideration, but here I can argue a bit. You can get your octo into your mouth much faster than you can get the one your buddy is carrying.

Let's not go around, ok? Yes, I can get to the octo a bit faster than I can get to my buddy. About 2-4 seconds faster in open water, about 5-7 seconds faster in a cave. If I had to turn on my pony bottle, going to a buddy would be faster. When slinging a pony, like a stage or deco bottle, the reg has to be pulled free and the tank turned on. I've practiced this in the pool and I cannot do it as fast as I can get gas from my regualr buddies. When I tried to get gas from my insta buddy recently, it took over thirty seconds, so the pony bottle would be infintely faster.

If you have a seperate system on you, there is now no rush to either get to your buddy or make a safe ascent. Let me ask you, what do you do if you are on one side of a tight restriction and your team is on the other?

Seperate system is great. Provided you know it works, and it has contents suitable to get you where you need it to. What would I do if I was on one side of a restriction and my team on the other? I'd wonder why they violated training and the dive plan since this would be beyond the scope of any dive I'm trained to do right now. That said, if I could reach the offending post, I'd shut it down. If that failed to stop the leak, I'd isolate and thumb the dive.

My diving in the forseeable future will be limited to 130 feet or less, more often then not less than 80. I will be purchasing a rig that will get me from 130 to the surface with a stop. Anything less is a waste as it won't allow me to self rescue in a safe manner.

How much gas would you require tomorrow to make a safe ascent from 130ft to the surface with a stop? In cubic feet.

If you had to bring your buddy to the surface with it, could you? And are there two regs on that pony or just one? If you plan to use your pony as your octo, what do you do if your buddy goes OOA? Hand off the pony bottle and leave him to his own devices? Do you donate your long hose off your main tank to him while you deploy the pony to yourself? Or do you put a long hose on the pony, keep both bottles on your person, and do an air sharing ascent?

[Racer184]

Great dive buddies usually have to be built. Over time.

After further thought; That is an excellent idea for a book that I would buy and read.

[VADiver]

Perrone NOTHING was lost. ScubaDrew could be talking about a host of issues that can happen in a nano second leaving him without air...a blown o-ring is one...when my hose sheered off diving a wreck I did not entirely clear as a second one...and others.

I think Perrone was talking about the lack of buddy skills...I agree this seems to be hit or miss. Buddy skills are an integral part of diving, yet too often people dismiss them because the stay shallow and can surface in an emergency.

Want people to learn then think outside your own experiences or assume that things can go wrong to others even if you've been lucky enough to not have experienced them. If you insult people they will tune out what you have to say...even if it is valuable. And your suggestions are valuable but they get lost in your delivery.

Furthermore, ScubaDrew is a newer diver. He hasn't had the experience that you've had. He is trying to learn and he is doing a great job looking at these issues NOW early in his diving experience. He may not have the ability to drive to a great dive destination on a regular basis like you and others do in cave country and therefore build up a great group of REGULAR dive buddies.

In fact he is most likely on THIS site to meet new dive buddies.

To always assume people have access to great dive buddies or dive teams, grossly ignores the reason most people are on this site....then want and need good buddies. And yes the *great* buddy is and does all the things you list...problem is that we aren't all *great* dive buddies and we all don't have access to *great* dive buddies.

I don't think the response was insulting, but again illustrates the different mindset between divers--those diving in an overhead and those within the NDL. I think it's great for Drew to ask questions, but you don't need access the Fla caves to develop a solid dive buddy team.

I dive with a group in DC and we all are at different skill levels--but we are all likeminded. We have the same set of fundamental skills and mindset, though each team dives a different profile. I would jump on a boat with any of those guys. The key to finding a good dive buddy is to find someone who is on the same sheet of music as you. Before I hit the ocean with a new buddy I try to make a couple low speed (i.e. quarry) dives with them first; we go over procedures and make sure we are comfortable with each other.

I find it odd that people will jump solo on a dive boat or be willing to be paired up with some diver just because they are diving the same mix or similar sized tanks.

Now enter the real world...and from that perspective ScubaDrew's post make perfect sense. However he is here to learn and learn he can.

As for testing OOG (out of gas) or OOA (out of air) scenarios...your suggestion to talk about it with your dive buddy and PRACTICE it are great. I highly recommend it and usually do it myself but like many others...need to be more diligent in it. I should as others have done...make it part of my dive ritual.

Regarding pony bottles...they are great and many threads have been started on the topic. And I'm sure many more will. Avoid a spare air...(too small and too expensive) and look at a regular pony bottle but check airline restrictions if you are mostly a fly in diver. Of course the proper use of these should include some training but that can easily be worked out...in fact I think you are near Jocassee Lake and I know you can get some training there!

And finally, pony bottles are not a substitute for good or bad buddy skills. However it is a form of redundancy that should complement your buddy skills or lack of your buddy's buddy skills. And it could save your life. It has mine.

As for always relying on great *buddies*...even great ones can't always be there to help you. Several very well respected cavers on this site have given numerous references to instances where a buddy was in front of someone in a narrow passage or a few feet away but silted out or otherwise unable to help. You must rely on yourself first and then your buddy as part of your tool arsenal. For example, if you panic you not only will not be useful to your buddy but you won't be able to help yourself and you limit what your buddy can do for you. If you are narc'd the same applies. And YES these both happen to good, seasoned and experienced divers. So of course they will happen to the rest of us as well.

As for pony bottles, we've beat that dead horse over and over again with no resolution—I guess it's best to agree to disagree with their use.

As for relying on dive buddies...I agree with Perrone. I rely on my buddies, and they rely on me. When I dive I realize my buddies have my life in their hands; and I have theirs. If I don't trust them, I don't dive with them--simple. And if I see someone in the water with poor skills or a total cluster, I make a note of it and won't even think about diving with them.

[PerroneFord]

I am a believer in developing individual skills. I think that one should be as proficient as possible to deal with issues that come up. However, it makes sense to me that when you dive with an attentive buddy you have more options available if a problem should arise. This doesn't relieve your own responsibility to be trained and supply your own redundancy, it just adds to your ability to deal with a problem deliberately.

Since you brought this up, I'd like to give an example from an introductory cave diving course regarding self-reliance. I think most people will be aware that the insides of caves are dark. REALLY dark. And without lights, it's blacker than black. Sensory perception robbing black. This is why each cave diver, by training, has to be armed with, at a minimum, 1 primary and two backup lights. For a dive team of 2, that is at least 6 lights to get you home. I carry a fourth in my pocket "just because". In training, we do a skill called "Lights out exit". Essentially, you turn off your lights and have to exit the cave.

For the uninitiated, there are lines in a cave that are the equivalent of breadcrumbs that lead back to the entrance. On that line are a series of markers that help you make directional decisions about where the nearest exit is, and they can be read by touch alone. Sometimes we are asked to make this blind exit without a mask. For my first try at this I had my mask, but the distance was 500ft. That is neearly 1.5* the length of a football field, or about 3/4 the length of a WW2 aircraft carrier. In the dark, where you must keep your fins up, your hands on a line about 1/4" thick, and make no navigational errors. Oh, and you had better control your breathing otherwise that air supply that was so adequate before, will not get you home. Later in training, you have to repeat this excercise, except you have to also maintain touch contact with a buddy, often while sharing air on the long hose.

Self-reliance is part and parcel of the overhead diving experience. But doing it with a solid buddy adds a dimension of safety that is sometimes priceless.

Some readers may recognize "PACE" - Primary, Alternate, Contingency, and Emergency.

AWESOME! Great concept here. I would encourage those who find themselves running out of air to begin the swim to their buddy, because when diving a single tank, there is only one path of air, and that alternate may well not be working either. Better to find that out when you are next to your buddy, than 50ft away.

Edited by PerroneFord, 14 July 2007 - 02:28 PM.