43 replies to this topic

[Fordan]

So I seem to be having some issues with cold water diving. Of my last 4 attempts to dive in cold water, 0 have been successful. I have some ideas about what the problem is, but I'd welcome input.

Some history:
I was certified about this time last year, with all of my checkout dives done up at the Dutch Springs quarry. Didn't have huge issues then, although I wasn't 100% comfortable, mostly due to issues with mask flooding and a BC I fought with a bit. Purchased a new jacket BCD, dove the Great Barrier Reef (11 dives) with it, then a couple more dives at the end of the season last year at Dutch. Picked up a reg set/dive computer/0.5mm wetsuit, did a week down in Cozumel in January. Didn't dive again until May, when the issues began..

1st bad dive:
DUI Dog Days demo. Was trying out a drysuit, unfortunately it didn't fit very well. I'm a big guy, 6'3", and "big boned." The neck zipseal won't go over my head, so I needed to wait for a suit without zipseals. When I went out, either the suit or the BCD ended up constraining my shoulders such that I couldn't easily reach the deflator valve on my left shoulder (didn't realize this until underwater). In addition, I was pretty heavily overweighted (thought someone had told me that a drysuit would take more weight than a wetsuit, so I added to my normal weight about 5-10 lbs). The instructor with me was teaching the buoyancy via drysuit method, BCD for the surface method. So we get a bit away from the entry ramp, and dump air from our BCDs. I start dropping pretty quick, and then I realize that the nice mask I picked up in Australia, the third I purchased and the first that didn't leak a lot, doesn't have much space around the nose, and that I couldn't get my fingers in to equalize while wearing gloves. I go to add air to the drysuit to get myself neutral, and it all dumps out the deflator. Try to reach over to the deflator to tighten it up, and can get to it. Meanwhile I'm finning up like a madman against my excess weight, ears are hurting, and my focus is narrowing on my dive computer watching the depth. I want to get back to the surface, and I don't want to use my BCD as an elevator, so I'm trying to swim the weight up. Yeah, not the brightest thought, but it seemed to make sense at the time. I make it to the surface, fully inflate my BCD, and after a chat with the instructor and another brief attempt to verify that I can't get to the deflator, call the dive and head in. Also at some point during this adventure, one of the BCD pockets dropped out, so I lost about 1/4 of my weight.

Main issues here I think were the badly fitting drysuit (or possibly the BCD when used with a drysuit), the fact that I overweighted myself, and the mask I couldn't equalize in. I wasn't panicked, but I definately had a narrowing of my perceptions; I couldn't have told you where my instructor/buddy was, I was focused on my dive computer and making the depth number go up, not down. Not a good dive, not a great response to it either. A week later I went down to Cozumel for a week again (friend wanted to go), and again no real issues.

2nd bad dive:
The rest of June and July I ended up working or otherwise unable to dive. Next dive was in August: a boat dive off the coast of NJ. It would have been my first dive off the coast here. I needed to do some of the dives for my NAUI Advanced courses (already have PADI AOW, but it was done at a resort with Fish ID and the like, so I did the NAUI one to pick up Search & Recovery and a few of the other specialties). Wearing a 7mm farmer john & jacket rental, and using the mask I had previous to getting the one in Australia. Did the flop off the boat, got to the line, and went down about 5 feet. The instructor and other 2 students were already in and on their way down to 15 ft. My mask was leaking at a rate much worse than I remembered, such that I had about a 5 count before the water in the mask was brushing my eyes and I had to clear. Checked to make sure I didn't have any hairs or the like breaking the seal; didn't find any. That, plus the lack of vis and that there were no divers near me had me mildly uncomfortable, so I decided that I'd rather not do the dive and aborted. As I was coming around the side of the boat to climb aboard, the instructor popped back up with a blown o-ring on his tank, so I was able to tell him I was aborting. Spent the rest of the time enjoying my boat ride and being mildly seasick. Didn't help that I didn't realize/forgot to bring food & water with me, and that I should have taken some seasickness medication before heading out.

Issue there: Mask problem, compounded by vis and nerves about first cold ocean dive.

3rd bad dive:
The weekend after I went up to the quarry again to dive with my main shop. Same rental 7mm setup, bought a new mask and promptly left it home, so I was stuck two masks in my bag, one I couldn't equalize with, and one that leaks badly. Used the mask that leaks badly went out, and it was the same in the quarry, and again, didn't see any obvious cause. Additionally, I felt I was overweighted, and was starting to feel a bit claustrophobic, so again, called the dive.

4th bad dive:
That was this weekend, and the one that has me the most concerned. I had a good mask, had used it in a pool with my rescue class with no leaks at all, using similar gear to before, apart from switching to AL100 tanks. Got up to Dutch late after being at work until 2am and having a power hit overnight that reset my alarm clock. Buddied up with someone for their 2nd dive, my first. We decide to hit the truck off the peninsula at 90', and that we'd surface swim out to the marker buoy to save air. Before we head out, I do a buoyancy check, and with a full tank was descending 1-2 inches a second, which seemed fairly reasonable. We start out swimming out, and I notice about halfway out I'm starting to hyperventilate a bit. More than just the swim exertion, and I was feeling a bit claustrophobic again. I stop and just float in the water, and while it got a bit better, was still breathing more quickly than I should be. I decide to call the dive since I'd rather do that on the surface rather than hope it all gets better once underwater. Buddy reminds me to drop weights if I need to, and offers to retrieve them later, which was a nice touch, although I wasn't at a point where dropping weight seemed warranted. I head back, get out of the gear, and feel better.

The first three dives I can understand and point to specific reasons they went poorly. The fourth seems heavily psychological, and that's what worries me. I spoke with the owner of my "secondary" dive shop, who I generally trust, and she was saying that what I felt wasn't uncommon, and that often it's an issue where the diver is being constricted by the wetsuit, often in the chest for women and around the neck for guys. I've never been happy with the fit of the rental suit, but it was the only one they had that came close to fitting. So this argument made sense to me, and I'm purchasing a 7mm custom Henderson Hyperstretch wetsuit as well as a Hyperstretch hood from her. Not real cheap, but not horrible, and better than spending the money on a drysuit to find out I'm a full-fledged Warm Water Wuss.

So I'd love to get input if the current theory makes sense, or other comments about the dives. I'd like to be able to dive locally, but the track record so far isn't looking good. My apologies if the post seems disjointed or has odd grammar mistakes; I've been writing it at work for much of the day in between getting work done, so it may be a bit off.

[ScubaDrew]

Wow, it sounds like you have had your share of issues. I just got back into cold water diving myself this year, and while I didn't have problems to your extent, I had some of the same issues.

To start with, I hope you fixed that mask problem.

Next, there is definately a constriction issue with wetsuits, especially the 7mm farmer john, which is what I dive in. It does take some getting used to, and with a proper fitting suit you can move around quite well, but it takes more effort. Working with gloves is a bummer, and that can freak you out some, not being able to feel your way around things, but again, it just takes getting used to.

I don't think are any tricks, other than do get some good dives in and get some gear that fits well. It sounds from the last dive that you are also starting to get a bit anxious. I would suggest diving the student side of Dutch. I haven't been to the peninsula, but there are a lot of things to see on the student side, and the 7mm is comfy even in the shallows. Get a couple of dives under your belt in shallow bright water. The point there being it is not as intimidating to dive to 30 feet as opposed to 90. You are expecting trouble after your last few dives, so make you next few on sites designed to put new divers at ease, and then hopefully you will fell better and can just get used to the way things feel.

Bouyancy is hard to get used to with a thick wetsuit because of the compression. I am just now getting used to it myself, my last weekend at Dutch I felt really good about my control, needs a ton of fine tuning still but it is much better than in July.

I am hoping to be at Dutch on the 13th and 14th of this month, with Sunday being a sure bet unless the World ends, if you want someone to buddy up with, I don't mind shallow dives, better pics to be taken there anyway.

Edited by ScubaDrew, 01 October 2007 - 02:44 PM.

[gcbryan]

You need to get all of your own gear and may sure that it fit's. You need to make sure you are weighted correctly. You need to do some easy dives until you get used to all the new gear and the cold water.

I agree with the above post. Just go to an easy, shallow site and get comfortable and forget the surface swims for now. Just drop down and get used to your gear.

Your last dive was a problem because of all the issues from your previous 3 dives. With all the ill fitting equipment and your newness to cold water you shouldn't be on an ocean boat dive. Just take it easy and stay within your comfort zone.

One more thing, don't compare warm water diving with cold water diving. It isn't the same. You are more constricted, have on more weight, everything will feel different.

Regarding the exhaust valve on your drysuit. It's not easy to reach mine once underwater. I can do it but I don't need to. I leave it all the way open and use my BC for buoyancy. If you aren't overweighted it's not a problem. Also, if you are horizontal and add air to your drysuit it won't all vent out of the exhaust valve. You just have to remember where your exhaust valve is. Make that the highest point when you do want to exhaust otherwise don't make it the hightest point.

I guess the only other thing I would add is that diving isn't something to treat too casually. You can get away with it sometimes in warm water although it's still not the right approach. In cold water with limited viz and more gear it's more likely to bite you. Being overweighted, in a drysuit that doesn't fit, with a mask that leaks, etc. is not the way I would start a dive.

Edited by gcbryan, 01 October 2007 - 06:18 PM.

[Cold_H2O]

Have to agree with Gray. Issue in warm water are not as tough to deal with as issues in cold water with limited vis.
Some dives never master the art of cold water diving.. and YES they are not the same.
Think of all the things that change from warm to cold.
Thicker wetsuit or a drysuit. ( HUGE difference)
More weight
Hood and gloves
Less vis
usually darker water
the cold ~ just a few things to consider

FIRST ~ you need to be doing easy dives in the cold water.
You may be an AOW diver with a few dives in warm water...but you ARE NOT a cold water diver.
Think of it as if you are still doing your OW class.

You have had some real equipment issues.
Until you work thru your equipment issues and get back to being comfortable and trusting your gear you should be keeping your dives easy and shallow.
I wouldn't go below 30 feet. Heck keep them under 20'.

Sounds to me like you need to find a buddy or instructor who will take you out and mentor you along.
Finding a more experienced cold water diver and having them work with you is a great idea.
I have done this for several new to cold water divers.
Find someone who is at least a Rescue diver or higher with several cold water dives logged.

Keep us posted on how you work thru this. Sounds like you already have fixed your leaky mask issue.

Edited by gis_gal, 01 October 2007 - 08:14 PM.

[diverdeb]

Good advice from all of the above. Always remember, never change more than one thing at a time, and give yourself time and a comfort zone to get used to it. For example, I've been diving for a while, am an instructor, etc., this past weekend I did my 1st drysuit dive. I started in the pool the week before (took a class myself), then went to springs to do a shallow easy dive. There's no way I would have done an ocean dive, even though the water's warm right now, until I was very comfortable with the new aspect. As a matter of fact, although I didn't have any problems, I will definitely do a few more shallow, controlled dives before I go deep.

Get your new 7mm, do SEVERAL shallow dives until you're really comfortable, then I'm sure you'll be fine. Getting some experience with the same gear every dive is the best thing you can do to up your comfort level.

Keep us posted. And don't give up!! I look forward to hearing about your next dive! I'm sure it will be a success!

[TraceMalin]

Fordan, dive with me. I'll square you away.

[Cold_H2O]

Fordan, dive with me. I'll square you away.

Great advice.. and he dives Dutch Springs.

[Fordan]

To answer/comment on a few of the concerns...

ScubaDrew:

Yes, I think I have my mask issue fixed. I didn't have an issue with it in 2 pool dive sessions, nor did I have an issue in my quick 5-10 second buoyancy check at the beginning of my fourth "dive." I am still a bit confused why a mask I had that was leaking a little at the end of last year started leaking a lot this year.

Agreeing to a 90' dive on the last dive was a stupid idea on my part. Deepest I've been to date in warm water is 87', cold water is 60'. While I did tell my buddy when he asked my comfort level with that dive that I reserved the right to thumb the dive or redirect to a shallower attraction, I should have just said no.

gcbryan:

In terms of not being on an ocean dive, I don't disagree currently; until I get a few successful dives in up at the Dutch Springs quarry, I don't plan to be on an ocean dive. In terms of my second bad dive, I'm not sure I agree I should have avoided it, or known to avoid it. The first bad dive was a drysuit demo dive, whereas the gear I was taking on the boat was gear that had worked ok (well, mask leaking some) in cold water diving the previous year. I suspect I even had the exact same wetsuit, as when I put together the rental request, I was using an old rental slip. I had 6-8 dives in cold/limited visibility the previous year plus 40 or so warm water dives since, the depth of the wreck we were hitting was only about 10'-15' deeper than my shop normally takes students to (my dive shop likes to do 2 quarry dives and 2 dives off the coast at 60' for certification, although I did all my dives at the quarry due to illness/timing issues). That plus I was doing the dive as part of a class with an instructor made me feel it was appropriate to do the dive.

I know there are two ways to control buoyancy with a drysuit. The instructor with me on the demo dive was explaining the drysuit-as-BC method, so that's what I tried to use. If/when I get my own drysuit, I suspect I'll use the BC for buoyancy, although I will likely try both with the instructor that I'm paying (or the shop is paying as part of the suit purchase).

Generally, I don't think I was treating diving too casually. In the case of the drysuit dive, I ended up going down to 15', and trying again since there was an instructor there. On the other dives, I called the dive on the surface or within 5' of the surface. I didn't know the drysuit didn't fit until I was under the water; it seemed ok on the surface. I would agree that I should have done a buoyancy check with the drysuit dive, and again with the 3rd bad dive. For the third bad dive I used the weight I had used at the quarry on my previous dive there with that same gear. I don't think I was horribly overweighted, but some. I brought the wrong mask on the third bad dive by mistake (I'm up to 4 masks now, and grabbed the wrong one at 5:30am ) I tried that mask again because it had worked before, and thought I may have missed something previously like a hair or thread from the hood that broke the seal previously.


In any case, my current plan is to order a custom fitted wetsuit (already done), and wait for it to arrive to try again. Once it does, I'll pop back to look for potential buddies with time. I greatly appreciate those who have offered. I also appreciate the advice people have given, and welcome anything else people have to offer. I'm trying not to be defensive; please tell me if I did something silly or stupid or that you disagree with.

[ScubaDrew]

It sounds like you were doing what you could to try and make things work, and it is good you can call a dive before you get in too deep, so to speak.

Masks that work one year may leak the next for a couple of reasons. Poor workmanship is probably the number one, and over time seals work loose. If you didn't store it just right the silicon could warp a little causing a bad fit, or if you gained or lost weight is the face or head.

In the case of a mis-shapen mask or change in your profile you might be able to get it to fit again by soaking it in warm water and putting it on a few times. You paid good money for it, might as well try to get it working again.

[shadragon]

First, good job in calling dive 4 on the surface. That was right on. If it does not feel right, there is probably a reason.

Good fitting gear goes a long way toward comfort level. Getting your own is a great idea to have a good fit on the exposure suit. The first pieces of gear I bought were a wet suit, fins and mask.

Practice in the quarry by all means and when you move to the ocean (if you use a boat) go in where you know the hard bottom is at a reasonable depth. If 40' for example and you have practiced in 50'-60' then you know even if you end up on the bottom it is within your comfort zone. Some new divers are nervous about deep water even though the techniques to maintain proper depth control are exactly the same. Try to use an ascent / descent line. Then you can pause and / or make adjustments if needed.

Go at your speed and comfort level. One of the best divers I know today spent their first 6 dives no deeper than 8 feet getting used to everything. It is a hostile and alien environment we choose to explore and everyone reacts differently to it.

All the best.

[Fordan]

Have my wetsuit, should have a new hood once I make it back to the dive shop... Anyone up to a dive Saturday?

[cmt489]

I also had those feelings of panic and claustrophobia on my first cold water dives (and will still get them on my first dive of the day given that I still have limited experience with cold water diving) but I can attest to the fact that a really good instructor (in my case Dive_Girl - you rock honey!) can help you through a lot of this. An understanding buddy also helps. I also agree that the drysuit throws things off. I too am just starting to acquire my comfort level but, IMO, it is totally worth it. Keep at it and it will get better and you might just find that you start to enjoy it!

[pir8]

I'm up Dutch Saturday with classes. I might be able to get a buddy for ya though.

[Cold_H2O]

Any success with your cold water diving?
Trace or Pir are both great instructors and it would be worth the time and effort to meet up and learn from them both.

[WreckWench]

Hey Fordan....

First thank you for sharing what is a COMMON experience for MANY divers in colder areas...learning to dive and learning to dive cold and learning to dive wet and dry is daunting for anyone!

First let me say I've had almost every issue in water...all the ones you've had and a number of very severe issues that almost cost me my life. But as they say...that which does not kill you makes you stronger.

Second, GCBryan is spot on about many things...stay in a conservative environment to practice in...Dutch is great for that and you have access to some great talent that will help you with your skills, concerns, or just be there.

You have been smart to gain exposure diving in general in warmer water to build your basic skills. Once those are mastered and you are quite comfortable with them, changing one thing at a time is a very smart suggestion from DiverDeb so you can get used to each new change.

Diving your own gear is the best....BUT you have to know what works and what does not...you've found many issues in the gear arena. I hope they will be solved soon.

Cold water diving is NOT similar to warm water diving in my estimation. I did my first cold water dives after first learning to dive...then learning to boat dive....then learning to dive on wrecks...then learning to save myself i.e. took Rescue then learning to help others by becoming a DM then learning to shore dive, then learning to dive dry and then mastering drysuit diving in WARM WATER FIRST....THEN I tried it in cold water.

Let me tell you...JUST DIVING COLD is entirely different than anything I've ever done.

1. I dove with someone I trusted implicitedly. (Nicolle aka Dive_Girl was my buddy when we did our first SD NW Treasure Hunt and Dive! She was phenomenal!) I would personally hire a dm or instructor to dive with me if I needed too to give me that 'safety margin' in the brain....and trust me...that is the most powerful element of diving!

2. I dove EASY dives so that if I encountered any issues I had easy bail outs.

3. Since I had really dialed in my drysuit diving I figured it would be easy...WRONG!!! I had never dove with full thermals and I could barely move which meant I could not reach my inflator hose, could not bend over to put on fins, had more restriction in my bc...fortunately I was on a boat in the PNW that did not have any negative attitude about diving in their locale, nor the fact that I was a WWW (warm water wuss) nor the fact that I was new to cold water diving and so they helped me to put on my fins and get into gear that normally I NEVER needed any help with. I even needed help getting my gloves on! And speaking of gloves...I was amazed at how little I could do with cold water gloves compared to warm water gloves. NO COMPARISON.(Did I mention mittons...they seem the way to go!)

4. More gear issues....I use a backplate and wing which is GREAT for cold water diving as well as warm...its all I use now everywhere and even weighs less than a regular bcd plus we get great deals from both OMS & DSS for our members too so it didn't cost me an arm and leg to get one. Ok back on track....the bp&w has a bungee on the shoulder harness that HOLDS your inflator right where you need it and they usually have COLD WATER style mods so that you can use them with gloves etc more readily. However my straps were set for my drysuit without the thermals...so they helped me loosen them so I could more readily get in and out.

Oh did I mention how important it is to dive with someone who is receptive to helping you out? And a boat op that is cool with the idea that you are doing something new...and doesn't have the attitude that you should come back when you have some skills under your belt.

This is just my opinion but you chose some of the most aggressive venues (NE diving) and experiences to initiate your first cold water dives. You dove in unknown terrain, using gear that might be better suited for warm water or just didn't fit well at all or even work properly, and in one casing diving a dry suit without any real instruction and all in all you did VERY WELL if you ask me given all the circumstances. I think you are logically thinking that you can transition from one type of diving to the other and not encounter issues. Now having over 1000 dives....trust me I felt like I had to learn to dive all over again when I started diving dry. I felt I was learning to dive all over again when I first dove cold. (Still have issues with it but I'm getting more experience and I want to learn.)And I'm claustrophobic so learning to dive cold is VERY hard for me but many suffer the same issues.... So don't be too hard on yourself...it will take time. But hey...that is good part...we get to work at something we love and we'll enjoy it more!

But then...I have the HIGHEST RESPECT IN THE WORLD for COLD WATER DIVERS BAR NONE! If you have only dove warm there is NO COMPARISON....NONE!!!

But oh is it great to see some of the amazing things that reside ONLY in cold water!

Oh yeah! And I'm so that may explain why it takes me longer to learn new things!