35 replies to this topic

[MagDiver]

The day before I was leaving for a trip I noticed my regulator needed repairs. I didn't have time to wait for repairs so I decided to buy a new regulator. I work in NYC so a quick search on the internet found a dive shop named Leisure Pro with the Mares Proton 32 that I wanted.... I ran down during my lunch hour and purchased it, but they didn't have the matching octopus. On my way back to the subway I passed another dive shop and ducked in. They had the matching regulator, so I purchased it. One of the guys in the shop (Could have been the owner) was upset that I bought the regulator at the other shop and was trying to convince me to return it right away because it was gray market and not covered by the warranty... He said the other shop wasn't an authorized Mares dealer. I was already late at this time and didn't have time to go back to the other shop. The guy in the second shop said that the warranty on the octopus he sold me wasn't valid either unless he assembles and tests everything.

The good news is that I love the Mares Proton 32. It breathes very easily, even when I'm upside down! The bad news is that the first stage purrs like a cat when I inhale and I can feel the vibration in the high pressure hoses and my gauges... This can't be normal! I now have to bring it in to a shop and probably listen to the authorized dealer speech again.

I didn't intend to buy a gray market regulator, but now I have one. It was manufactured by Mares, so the quality shouldn't be impaired.

On my trip I met a guy from Las Vegas who also purchased his regulator from the Leisure Pro, but through the internet. He said he was shipped all the parts unassembled. He took it to his LDS to have it assembled and he got ripped into for buying gray market gear... He didn't realize it was gray market either.

So what's the deal with gray market gear? And if it's so important to buy only from authorized dealers, why don't the authorized dealers advertise this fact better so people take this into consideration when making a purchase?

[BubbleBoy]

I've seen Leisure Pro coming under fire from Scuba Pro lately too. There is a big statement about it on the SP website somewhere. I don't know where LP gets their stuff, but, clearly they are not supported or authorized by some of the brands they sell. They also don't service anything, so, even if they are authorized to sell it, you're on your own once you buy it. On the other hand, I have bought a lot of stuff from LP, mostly nick nack items that haven't given me any problems, and a lot of their stuff is genuine. I know they carry lots of OMS gear and I don't see any compalints about that.

I also have Mares 32 regs and love them. What you are experiencing is definitely not normal. Leisure Pro will accept returns within 30 days, so, if you really aren't happy with your situation, try taking your reg back and at least get a replacement from them to try.

Edited by BubbleBoy, 21 November 2007 - 06:52 PM.

[ScubaDrew]

The day before I was leaving for a trip I noticed my regulator needed repairs. I didn't have time to wait for repairs so I decided to buy a new regulator. I work in NYC so a quick search on the internet found a dive shop named Leisure Pro with the Mares Proton 32 that I wanted.... I ran down during my lunch hour and purchased it, but they didn't have the matching octopus. On my way back to the subway I passed another dive shop and ducked in. They had the matching regulator, so I purchased it. One of the guys in the shop (Could have been the owner) was upset that I bought the regulator at the other shop and was trying to convince me to return it right away because it was gray market and not covered by the warranty... He said the other shop wasn't an authorized Mares dealer. I was already late at this time and didn't have time to go back to the other shop. The guy in the second shop said that the warranty on the octopus he sold me wasn't valid either unless he assembles and tests everything.

The good news is that I love the Mares Proton 32. It breathes very easily, even when I'm upside down! The bad news is that the first stage purrs like a cat when I inhale and I can feel the vibration in the high pressure hoses and my gauges... This can't be normal! I now have to bring it in to a shop and probably listen to the authorized dealer speech again.

I didn't intend to buy a gray market regulator, but now I have one. It was manufactured by Mares, so the quality shouldn't be impaired.

On my trip I met a guy from Las Vegas who also purchased his regulator from the Leisure Pro, but through the internet. He said he was shipped all the parts unassembled. He took it to his LDS to have it assembled and he got ripped into for buying gray market gear... He didn't realize it was gray market either.

So what's the deal with gray market gear? And if it's so important to buy only from authorized dealers, why don't the authorized dealers advertise this fact better so people take this into consideration when making a purchase?

I haven't run into this with scuba gear, but a buddy was just researching digital slr cameras, and learned a bit about gray market stuff. It seems the camera he almost bought was actually from Europe, with no warranty, no product support, no nothing. And since it wasn't from an authorized retailer, the company won't support it, say, if he fries the bios during a firmware upgrade. Or if say it didn't work when he opened the box. It also wasn't going to ship with all the normally included goodies, like batteries. This was also from a NYC shop. And for that matter the digital SLR I bought was also shipped with an Euro charger, so it was gray market. Like you, I didn't know until it was too late. It's buyer beware in NYC.

Personally, I would try to buy from an authorized retailer for anything scuba, but man it can be hard. You have to go to the manufacturer website and check there for dealers. It is a major PITA, made worse as the sites are not constantly updated. I think the industry can do a way better job, and the LDS will probably charge you extra to fix what should be covered under warranty. Maybe it is designed to weed out sleazy stores, but in the end some nice reputable shops sell gear, and can't always become authorized retailers.

Good luck, sounds like you're learning this lesson the hard way...

[Scubatooth]

this is probably going to go into the poltics of diving but anyways. This subject is a really sore subject and exposes that nasty underbelly of the dive industry.

what you bought was real mares reg, just didnt follow the normal path like Mares would like

basically grey market goods are "goods" that didnt go through the manufactures or importers official channels with the normal 100%+ mark up and Min advertised price fixing mess . these shops get them in other countries and then bring them into the US this normally saves a fair amount of money (this is how leisure pro gets there items). There are other policies placed on the dealers to sell at high rates or they will loose there dealership agreement. that in that they have to maintain certain volumes to maintain to keep the dealership as well as darconian restrictions on over the phone or internet sales (come on this is the 21st century not the stone age).

Normally it comes down to theres no warrenty on the item but that does not bother me in that the difference in price is more then the cost of the parts for 10 years of parts

good example of this recently is the Suunto D9 dive computer recall through CPSC because of bad software(that could really bend or kill a diver. That led to the recall initally Aqualung (importer of Suunto in the US) said that if it didnt come from a "official" dealer it wasnt going to be fixed or where going to charge a fair amount to fix there defect even though they all came from the same place (odd isnt it). Well when the CPSC got wind of this they basically told Aqualung USA they would have to fix the issue no if ands or buts about it as a recall is a recall or face the microscope of the feds.

there are many other examples of grey market goods and manufactures tactics just have to look on google to find them.

really when it comes down to it manufactures in the dive industry dont want to compete in the modern economy so they skirt US federal and international laws so not to get investigated for price fixing.

if you search on scubaboard and thedecostop there are many threads on the Grey market goods issue. this isnt limited to scuba diving but is in camera gear as well but it is no where as bad as it is in scuba diving.

[Scubatooth]

ScubaDrew

you are also getting into bait and switch companies based in NY and NYC that offer a low price but then over price the normal accessories with a camera (strap, battery, manuels, body cap - no joke). when it comes to big dollar electronics just remember to look them up on resellerratings.com. if you need help on finding a good camera and a good price let me know and i will point you to the good dealers.


BB
LP is getting it from somewhere and its all coming from the same place. heck i remember seeing new regulators on LP a month or more before a local dealer got them.

[ScubaDrew]

ScubaDrew

you are also getting into bait and switch companies based in NY and NYC that offer a low price but then over price the normal accessories with a camera (strap, battery, manuels, body cap - no joke). when it comes to big dollar electronics just remember to look them up on resellerratings.com. if you need help on finding a good camera and a good price let me know and i will point you to the good dealers.


BB
LP is getting it from somewhere and its all coming from the same place. heck i remember seeing new regulators on LP a month or more before a local dealer got them.

Yeah, I could have killed the salesman I dealt with when buying my camera. It was a shop that advertised all over, and the camera was cheaper than anyother store. It was marketed body only, but I already had the lenses I was going to use with it, so I thought I was getting a good deal.

Well, a memory card and spare battery later I was out the same amount as if I had bought from any other place. The guy told me the camera came with nothing, but when I opened the box it indeed came with a battery and memory card. The dude lied to me and that is one thing that will get you on my bad side quick. The price of the battery and card were twice what everyone else sold them for. I didn't know. I was too stupid to do any research and just jumped when I saw what I wanted. Never again.

I tell everyone looking to buy a camera not to use that shop. Scumbags. Anyone wants to know what it is pm me, cant post it publicly I guess.

As for scuba, I knew a couple of shop owners, who were trying to get authorized status and couldnt for whatever reason. They were a reputable shop and did great work on all the gear they sold, but there were restrictions on waranty work and so forth. Politics, but in the case of big money dive gear I would still try to jump through the channels that get me the best service.

Edited by ScubaDrew, 21 November 2007 - 07:21 PM.

[Scubatooth]

I wouldnt have in that case i would have lost it in person, i have very little tolerance for deceit and lying by salesmen. When it comes to major purchases i research them before opening the wallet.

basically in NYC you deal with B&H photo, Adorama, 17th Street photo and beyond that your in bad dealings. If in doubt check www.resellerratings.com

for example here is LeisurePro's http://www.resellerr...ore/Leisure_Pro

[Latitude Adjustment]

One of the guys in the shop (Could have been the owner) was upset that I bought the regulator at the other shop and was trying to convince me to return it right away because it was gray market and not covered by the warranty... He said the other shop wasn't an authorized Mares dealer. I was already late at this time and didn't have time to go back to the other shop. The guy in the second shop said that the warranty on the octopus he sold me wasn't valid either unless he assembles and tests everything.

So what's the deal with gray market gear? And if it's so important to buy only from authorized dealers, why don't the authorized dealers advertise this fact better so people take this into consideration when making a purchase?

The stories you get from the LDS remind me of the car dealers who say they will flag your warranty as invalid if you take your car to a local gas station for an oil change, pure BS. They don't know it's gray market unless you tell them where you bought it and if they ask me it's a dive shop two hours up the road from my home which isn't a lie. I've never had an LDS dumb enough to say "I won't take your money to service it"!
Over the years I bought two regs from LDS's and they never tested or assembled anything. Since then I've used Leisure Pro to outfit me and the kids. The regs were made in the same factory, they just play the foreign currency market to get the best price and then offer their own warranty. I had one Zeagle reg free flow and LP repaired and returned it in two weeks, my LDS takes longer than that. Oceanic says to avoid gray market too but they have replaced three dive computers and an SPG under warranty that I bought from LP .

[ScubaDrew]

I wouldnt have in that case i would have lost it in person, i have very little tolerance for deceit and lying by salesmen. When it comes to major purchases i research them before opening the wallet.

basically in NYC you deal with B&H photo, Adorama, 17th Street photo and beyond that your in bad dealings. If in doubt check www.resellerratings.com

for example here is LeisurePro's http://www.resellerr...ore/Leisure_Pro

Actually one of those shops is the one I used...

[ScubaDrew]

The stories you get from the LDS remind me of the car dealers who say they will flag your warranty as invalid if you take your car to a local gas station for an oil change, pure BS. They don't know it's gray market unless you tell them where you bought it

You know Ray, you have a point there. I mean I suppose they could look up serial numbers, but do shops ever do that? You might get burned here and there, but I think you probably could get away with it more times than not.

[pir8]

For Warenty work a shop would have to look up the numbers if they didn't sell you the product. Otherwise they would have to pay for the parts if it wasn't covered.

[Yohanson]

You interested in trading that V32 for a V16 with the original owners ID? I own both and now that I dive doubles, I'd like to have matching regs and I prefer the V32. I'm willing to add something extra (cash?) as I know the V32 is worth more than the V16. Email me at john at northernlinks.com

[BubbleBoy]

...I've used Leisure Pro to outfit me and the kids. The regs were made in the same factory, they just play the foreign currency market to get the best price and then offer their own warranty.

It's true this gray market SCUBA equipment is all made in the same place as the "official stuff". It's not like there is some secret factory in Taiwan making replicas like they do with Rolex watches.

One thing I have always wondered about ,though, is what happens to defective production? Every manufacturing process produces a certain percentage of rejects that don't meet spec. I assume for something as critical as a regulator the rejects get thrown away. But, I don't know for sure. Maybe they get sold to the Russian or Chinese military or something. That would create the possibility that these rejects find their way back to the prime market somehow.

Anyone have any knowledge about this?

[MagDiver]

One thing I have always wondered about ,though, is what happens to defective production? Every manufacturing process produces a certain percentage of rejects that don't meet spec. I assume for something as critical as a regulator the rejects get thrown away. But, I don't know for sure. Maybe they get sold to the Russian or Chinese military or something. That would create the possibility that these rejects find their way back to the prime market somehow.

Anyone have any knowledge about this?

I would hope that they would destroy defective units as regulators are essentially life support equipment!

[ScubaDrew]

...I've used Leisure Pro to outfit me and the kids. The regs were made in the same factory, they just play the foreign currency market to get the best price and then offer their own warranty.

It's true this gray market SCUBA equipment is all made in the same place as the "official stuff". It's not like there is some secret factory in Taiwan making replicas like they do with Rolex watches.

One thing I have always wondered about ,though, is what happens to defective production? Every manufacturing process produces a certain percentage of rejects that don't meet spec. I assume for something as critical as a regulator the rejects get thrown away. But, I don't know for sure. Maybe they get sold to the Russian or Chinese military or something. That would create the possibility that these rejects find their way back to the prime market somehow.

Anyone have any knowledge about this?

By this you have to assume that grey market means some other source. As I understand it, these items are coming from the same type of wholesalers overseas that there is here, but the grey market is taking advantage of exchange rates to lower cost.

OTH it may well be a direct line, but the retailer doesn't want to jump through the manufacturers hoops to get the authorized retailer sign. In some instances manufacturers limit the number of authorized retailers, either altogether or within a certain area. In that case two stores side by side may well be getting their stock from the same wholesaler, just one is recognized and the other isnt.

I think that the chances of you getting a bad reg are the same from either shop, but your options to get it repaired/replaced may well be different.

And I am sure known defects are destroyed or repaired before shipping. Even the military won't continue to order equipment that doesn't work. It may order equipment that is in-adequate to the task at hand (*cough*vehicle armor *cough*cough*), but it won't patronize the lowest bidder if their stuff doesn't work at all.