35 replies to this topic

[Racer184]

...was cheaper than any other store...

ah....... that is called a "clue"

I learned long ago that I cannot afford the cost of buying by price.

[shadragon]

If you went to an 'official' car dealer with parts purchased through a third party auto parts store and asked to have them installed in your vehicle; how would they react?

I can see the argument on both sides. If a shop is not an official dealer then where did they get the regs? Fell off a truck, Hong Kong knock-offs, previously owned by a little old lady who only dove on Sunday? You have to wonder. The consumer wants a 'deal" and the company wants to maintain quality and keep their company and brand name respectable.

I am with Racer184 on this issue. You might pay a few bucks more for quality, but it is worth it...

[PerroneFord]

Hmmm..

So lets say I'm riding around town and pass a used car lot. I see a nice newish Honda I want and make arrangements to buy it. I get the Honda, and 6 months later take it to the shop for it's semi-annual checkup. Do you think the Honda dealer cares I got it from a used car lot in town? Suppose I was on vacation and needed service? Do they run the VIN, see that I didn't buy it from an authorized dealer and refuse me service?

What's the difference? Automakers do not let NEW automobiles fall into the hands of non-authorized dealers. That is their job. Not the job of the consumer.

Here is the sad fact. No one has to wonder where Leisure Pro gets their regs. Everyone KNOWS where they get them, including the manufacturer. But, it's all money in the manufacturer pocket so why would they care. In fact they get MORE money from Leisurepro selling it because they don't have to honor their free parts warranty and can simply charge full price to the consumer down the road. It's a better deal for them.

It doesn't cost the shop a dime more to service a reg that's come from an non-authorized reseller. You could have bought it used for all they know. It's none of their business as long as you don't try to get free warranty parts out of them.

Sometimes I think I just live in another world. This garbage absolutely would not fly in the cave community. No one would buy the regs. Which is why you see so very different names on cave gear than other kinds of gear. Dive Rite, Oxycheq, Salvo, etc. They support us, we support them. None of this warranty fooling around stuff.

[Fordan]

The good news is that I love the Mares Proton 32. It breathes very easily, even when I'm upside down! The bad news is that the first stage purrs like a cat when I inhale and I can feel the vibration in the high pressure hoses and my gauges... This can't be normal! I now have to bring it in to a shop and probably listen to the authorized dealer speech again.

Or you take it back to LP and have them deal with it, since you purchased the first stage from them. If it was Grey Market (not everything LP sells is Grey Market, but much is), then there's Leisure Pro's warranty on it. http://www.leisurepr...#WarrantyPolicy

[Scuba_Dad]

LDS's have a real hard time servicing anything that was purchased off the internet. That's something I really do not understand. A customer is a customer.

I watched the LDS owner totally humiliate a customer for buying something online and bringing it into the store to get it "looked at". Well, the LDS owner successfully managed to lose the customer for life. The guy will never be back.

When I was servicing equipment, I always welcomed online purchased equipment with open arms. I'd discuss the deal they got, and I'd explain the setbacks of purchasing gray market equipment. Then, I'd explain the benefits of buying equipment at an LDS. The odds of them buying their equipment from an LDS will be better next time they decide to purchase.

Too many LDS's are fighting the e-stores instead of competing with them. Yeah, they can't sell stuff as cheap as some of the e-stores, but they can at least offer a service the e-stores can't.

Al

Edited by Scuba_Dad, 24 November 2007 - 08:31 AM.

[PerroneFord]

'd discuss the deal they got, and I'd explain the setbacks of purchasing gray market equipment.

For educational purposes, would you mind divulging that information here? I'm curious as to my setbacks since I've purchased gear online.

[Scuba_Dad]

'd discuss the deal they got, and I'd explain the setbacks of purchasing gray market equipment.

For educational purposes, would you mind divulging that information here? I'm curious as to my setbacks since I've purchased gear online.

The biggest setback with grey market is the lack of a warrantee. Several manufacturers will provide parts for life as long as you get it serviced annually. I know ScubaPro will put you back on the parts for life program if you let your service lapse... al you have to do is pay for the parts one year, and you're back in good graces with ScubaPro.

Prior to letting a regulator out of the shop, I always checked it out. Even with ScubaPro.. I had to fine tune about 10% of them before letting them out of the shop. Yeah! Most customers would probably never notice the difference... but, it does make a difference. The last thing a customer wants is a malfunctioning regulator the first time they put it in the water.

I've also seen "brand new" regulators purchased off of eBay that had salt residue in them. I wonder how that got there?

You can't beat the personalized service you receive from a "good" LDS. Not all LDS's are "good"... but those are the same ones that will trash you if you brought something in from an eStore.

Al

[secretsea18]

One of the guys in the shop (Could have been the owner) was upset that I bought the regulator at the other shop and was trying to convince me to return it right away because it was gray market and not covered by the warranty... He said the other shop wasn't an authorized Mares dealer. I was already late at this time and didn't have time to go back to the other shop. The guy in the second shop said that the warranty on the octopus he sold me wasn't valid either unless he assembles and tests everything.

So what's the deal with gray market gear? And if it's so important to buy only from authorized dealers, why don't the authorized dealers advertise this fact better so people take this into consideration when making a purchase?

The stories you get from the LDS remind me of the car dealers who say they will flag your warranty as invalid if you take your car to a local gas station for an oil change, pure BS. They don't know it's gray market unless you tell them where you bought it and if they ask me it's a dive shop two hours up the road from my home which isn't a lie. I've never had an LDS dumb enough to say "I won't take your money to service it"!
Over the years I bought two regs from LDS's and they never tested or assembled anything. Since then I've used Leisure Pro to outfit me and the kids. The regs were made in the same factory, they just play the foreign currency market to get the best price and then offer their own warranty. I had one Zeagle reg free flow and LP repaired and returned it in two weeks, my LDS takes longer than that. Oceanic says to avoid gray market too but they have replaced three dive computers and an SPG under warranty that I bought from LP .

My LDS required me to convince them to service my Scubapro reg when I moved to NYC. They were just about refusing to do it, as they didn't sell it to me. It was a big deal to them, that I hadn't bought it from them.

[captsteve]

Just imagine if nobody had a LDS to cry too when something broke. We would all be on our own. I know my LDS makes very little selling stuff to its regular divers and the service is very good. I have purchased quite a few things over the internet, but some things are just too important to trust strangers with.

[PerroneFord]

Just imagine if nobody had a LDS to cry too when something broke. We would all be on our own.

It's very empowering learning to fix your own gear. And it's remarkably refreshing buying gear from companies who encourage owners to learn to maintain their gear. It feels very different than companies who make it impossible or impractical for owners to maintain their own gear, and force reliance on local dive shops.

I don't like monopoly or autocracy, and I don't like unfair practices. Forcing me to rely on a dealer intent on charging me exorbitant rates for gear and service is a sure way to get me to buy elsewhere.

[annasea]

<snip>
I don't like monopoly or autocracy, and I don't like unfair practices. Forcing me to rely on a dealer intent on charging me exorbitant rates for gear and service is a sure way to get me to buy elsewhere.

[MagDiver]

The biggest setback with grey market is the lack of a warrantee. Several manufacturers will provide parts for life as long as you get it serviced annually. I know ScubaPro will put you back on the parts for life program if you let your service lapse... al you have to do is pay for the parts one year, and you're back in good graces with ScubaPro.

The warranties on regulators cover parts only... over the life of a regulator the cost of the parts is insignificant compared to the cost of labor. If the warranties covered parts and labor they'd have real value!

My last regulator was a ScubaPro, I bought it through an authorized dealer, and registered it. After a year or so I voided the lifetime warranty by not taking it in for the annual service... I quickly realized that the lure of free parts was not worth what I was paying in service fees.

[MagDiver]

Just imagine if nobody had a LDS to cry too when something broke. We would all be on our own. I know my LDS makes very little selling stuff to its regular divers and the service is very good. I have purchased quite a few things over the internet, but some things are just too important to trust strangers with.

I brought my ScubaPro regulator to my ScubaPro authorized LDS for regular service before I went on a trip. On that trip I had a problem with my first stage that was quite alarming. The air shut off completely and suddenly... luckily I was decending and was only about 15 feet under water.... Oh and this was a night dive!

I brought it right back to my LDS and they disassembled the first stage, cleaned it and reassembled it and tested it. It seemed to work perfectly when they tested it, but when I was suited up and in the water for my next dive the air shut off again, completely and suddenly. This time, luckily, I was still at the surface.

Needless to say, that first stage is now a paper weight, I don't care who tries to fix that anymore I'm not going to attempt another dive with it.

I trusted these guys until this incident. That first stage had over 150 dives on it and I never had a problem like this until it was serviced. My point is that authorized dealers can make mistakes too... Mistakes that can kill you!

[secretsea18]

Just imagine if nobody had a LDS to cry too when something broke. We would all be on our own. I know my LDS makes very little selling stuff to its regular divers and the service is very good. I have purchased quite a few things over the internet, but some things are just too important to trust strangers with.

As the LDS is a business, how much they make is really irrelevant to this discussion, just like you really wouldn't care how much I make in my business. Businesses price things at various rates for different reasons.
I DO think that I should not HAVE to beg them to do a service that they offer in their business just because I had bought it somewhere else. I had purchased my reg from an authorized dealer in another state when I lived in that state. It should not matter where I bought it, I did follow the warranty rules, and they should do the service as they provide this in their business. As this is the only authorized service location around, I really had no choice to go somewhere else.
As for where the warantee comes in, is when this reg required replacement of the main parts of the first stage, due to a known manufacturing defect in materials. A costly part, that was replaced for free under the lifetime warantee. And this technician was great dealing with the big corporation (it took 3 months, but he got them to do what he wanted them to) to get it done. It was the front folks in the LDS that were a pain the first time I went to them.

[BubbleBoy]

I don't understand why the SCUBA equipment market can't be structured similar to the auto market. There are some dealers that just sell cars and provide little or no service. There are dealers that sell cars and service them too. There are thousands of companies that primarily provide just service, from big corporations like Midas and Jiffy Lube, to mom and pop autoshops.