33 replies to this topic

[Bubble2Bubble]

Its pretty accepted that using Nitrox is Safe, matter of fact alot of Dive-Ops are requiring Nitrox only on there boats because of safety and liability issues. So when a OW diver wants to go Advanced I think the Nitrox course should be taught in the AOW training. This could save the diver some money that could be spent on a dive trip or some new equipment. This might not help the divers that have already shelled out the bucks for Nitrox training, but could give a new to diving person alittle money to keep in there own pockets (kinda like a tax refund).

Your Thoughts

Bubski

Edited by Bubble2Bubble, 16 February 2008 - 11:58 AM.

[Latitude Adjustment]

"Combine some Certs to save Divers some money " It was one course but they split the certs to make some money!

[Parrotman]

after 600+ dives I finally went ahead and took the nitrox course. Since you need the cert to dive with Nitrox you really have no choice unlike most of the specialty dives that it takes to get your AOW C card. However I gotta say that the money they charge for this course is out of line. Watch a 30 minute CD, read a few chapters in a book and take a quiz. This certification should cost about $35 rather than the $100+ depending on where your getting the training. So, to answer your question, Yes, it should be included. Actually one step better would be to include it in the OW certification.

If the dive agencies are truly advocating safer diving they should be making this course as available as possible to the largest audience possible. I understand that the Dive Ops that are teaching these courses need to make a profit as well but please. I spent a total of 15 minutes with an instructor on this course and 5 of those were filling out the paperwork to get my C card.

Edited by Parrotman, 16 February 2008 - 07:54 PM.

[ScubaDrew]

I don't mind the nitrox class being seperate. If you want to include it in an AOW class, I think the class itself needs to change. Personally I think it needs to change anyway.

I think that the "AOW" class as it is right now should be part of the OW training. In order to get the "advanced" rating, you should have to have several dives, and actually DO something in that class. I think its sad that you can go straight from OW to AOW, consider yourself an advanced diver, and be granted access to dives that OW divers can't do. You aren't anymore trained or ready as opposed to an OW diver, especially if that OW diver has a few years and 50+ dives logged.

I like the AOW concept for extra experience, but I think it really ought to be part of OW.

[shadragon]

I had no issue with my NITROX course, but I had a conscientious instructor who spent a full day with us teaching all of the theory, formulae and tables then practise, practise, practise. The second day was spent doing gas analysis, a two dive boat trip with more formula practise on the transit out and even how to set (and unset after the dives) our computers with the correct values.

I don't know if folding NITROX into AOW would work. Those who want to take it will. I would like to see all divers go to at least Rescue, but that is a personal thing.

[JimG]

I have been encouraging my students to combine AOW and Nitrox for many years now. In fact, I do an "intro to Nitrox" as one my AOW specialty dives. This year, I have decided to start offering the two separate certs as a combined cert. I guess I'll have to see how that goes.

Regarding the "out of line pricing" - you have to look at what is bundled with the course and how much that all costs. There is not a lot of flexibility on how much you pay for the textbook and materials, plus many agencies no longer require dives, so the certification fee has to be bundled in the class as well (i.e. cannot shift that expense to a dive trip as you can with OW and some others). The suggestion of charging only $35 would not even cover the "hard" costs of teaching the course in most cases. My cost for those items (textbook and cert fees) is $33, and that is probably on the low side by industry standards. My time and expertise to teach the class is certainly worth more then $2.

So $100 may seem out of line, but I suspect it is a lot closer to representing the "true" cost of offering the course (as compared to the price of OW training, which is subsidized by gear sales and is pretty much offered as a loss leader across the industry). Of course, you should get some actual training for your $100, and not just watch a video and take a test. This is where comparison shopping and choosing the right instructor pays off. A good instructor will definitely earn the money.

I do agree that Nitrox should be taught as soon after OW as possible.

-JimG

Edited by JimG, 17 February 2008 - 09:35 AM.

[BubbleBoy]

I think as Nitrox gets more popular, the training will naturally come earlier for most divers. But, I don't think you need to combine it with anything. It's one of those subjects that does stand on its own fairly well. I could see the course eventually expanding to include more variety of mixed gas use.

As for the cost of the course, I guess it could be less, maybe for the online courses. But, relative to other things (like the $40 fee Citibank charged me for a wire transfer last week, and the $1,800 my dentist just charged me for a crown) $100 bucks for a nitrox course doesn't sound too bad.

[peterbj7]

I gotta say that the money they charge for this course is out of line. Watch a 30 minute CD, read a few chapters in a book and take a quiz. This certification should cost about $35 rather than the $100+ depending on where your getting the training. ..... I spent a total of 15 minutes with an instructor on this course and 5 of those were filling out the paperwork to get my C card.

You had a lousy course given by a lousy instructor. I was going to say "taught by" but that's hardly appropriate in this case. IMO the PADI manual has been so degraded over the years that it now doesn't come close to the minimum needed, and when I'm teaching Nitrox for any agency I use a combination of sources. I've actually decided to write my own manual as there's nothing out there that I've seen that passes muster.

It takes me a good half day to teach a nitrox course, with that stretched out if the students have difficulties (as way too many do these days with simple arithmetic & algebra). With my worst ever student I abandoned the course on the third day, but he went to someone back home and was signed up on the spot. Different instructors, different standards, different expectations. That student is now an instructor.....

A nitrox course is a good opportunity for reviewing all the theory of diving and nitrogen-related issues, as well as introducing some of those associated with oxygen. I have never so far taught a student whose basic knowledge of diving wasn't deficient in at least some ways.

PADI and several other agencies teach you to "know" and "remember" the important aspects of nitrox diving, such as the various computations. I suppose they're not to be criticised as that is the way most kids are taught in schools and even many universities these days. Within at most a few months all that is forgotten. Still worse, the complicated and seemingly arbitrary formulae that you're expected to remember are often mis-remembered and wholly incorrect answers obtained.

Reminds me of my niece who at 17 couldn't multiply 17*19 without using a calculator. She pressed a wrong button and got a wildly wrong answer but didn't know, as she had never developed any ability for mental arithmetic. She didn't even understand the concept (until I explained it to her) of a "reasonableness" check, to put upper and lower limits on what the answer must be. Not her fault - it isn't taught in schools, and most parents weren't taught it either, so they can't pass it on.

The only way to learn this material effectively is from basic principles, so you don't have to remember anything, you understand. Anything understood will remain with you for the rest of your life.

So, as I said you were conned and your "course" would have been expensive at $35. Mine at $100 (EXCLUDING materials and PIC) is however very cheap. I know there are other instructors out there with a similar philosophy to mine - although I've never witnessed him teaching, I'm sure Trace wouldn't rob you blind as your instructor did. Worse - he let you believe that you had actually learned something!

On PADI rules - whatever happened to their suggestion that the final dive of the OW course could be on nitrox and count as the first of the two mandatory dives for the Nitrox course? Now that dives are no longer mandatory that becomes rather meaningless. I wouldn't teach an OW course on nitrox, not one in the style of PADI courses anyway, as I think there's too much to take in all at once. But I do teach it, not as part of the AOW course but in parallel with it. I think it's extraordinary that it is possible to become a PADI divemaster without being a Nitrox diver. That to my mind is wholly wrong. I won't certify anyone as a divemaster unless they are a Nitrox diver.

Edited by peterbj7, 17 February 2008 - 10:32 AM.

[ScubaTex]

Once again, I believe we must consider the impact of the dive computer upon this issue of nitrox training. With the invention of the dive computer, and the proliferation of FREE nitrox offerings by dive operators, the demand for nitrox certifications grew exponentally. In order to meet this demand and the use dive computers, the certifying agencies decided to lower the requirements for certification. Now, it's just as important to know when, and where your dive computer resets your mix after a dive, or series of dives, as the ability to compute PO2 and maximum dive depth.

Just my 2# of EAN32

Bill

[running_diver]

PADI and several other agencies teach you to "know" and "remember" the important aspects of nitrox diving, such as the various computations. I suppose they're not to be criticised as that is the way most kids are taught in schools and even many universities these days. Within at most a few months all that is forgotten. Still worse, the complicated and seemingly arbitrary formulae that you're expected to remember are often mis-remembered and wholly incorrect answers obtained.

All of my certs are from PADI, including nitrox. Maybe I'm jaded, but it seems pretty clear to me that PADI is focused entirely on having a good defense in case they or their instructor are sued. Everything from the lessons, to what is emphasized, to the questions on the tests are designed so that they have evidence their students were aware of the dangers. In some ways it's good because it makes diving accessible, virtually anyone can become a diver.

On the other hand, I can remember thinking "You've got to be kidding me" when I got my temporary C card. I knew I would be a danger to myself and others underwater. I read two or three books on decompression theory and diving physiology and did 10 or 20 dives at the easiest dive site in the region before I felt even marginally competent.

For the Nitrox class, I was prepared in advance. I probably knew more about hyperbaric oxygen than the instructor. The class was what I expected, a video and a test. I'm sure the others in the class just learned the formulas long enough to pass the test.

I agree with what you said about the way I've also taught math at the college level and all the students wanted was a list of formulas and a clear cut list of when to apply them. They refused to understood that the formulas don't really work 100% except in contrived problems and that there was a lot less to memorize if you understood where all the formulas came from.

As you pointed out, for most PADI nitrox divers, have blind faith in their computers. If they enter something wrong or they encounter a problem with the software, the only way they will know is if they get bent or worse. I wonder how long until blind faith in their computers causes inexperienced divers to try deco diving because their computer says it's ok.

Ross

[DandyDon]

It is nice when everyone one the boat is on Nitrox - a nicer way to say what I used to say in a gruffer manner than intended.

I think my Nitrox course cost around $200, not sure - been long time. The two dive requirement was silly, now not included.

When Padi introduced the combination card, and I then planned to take Rescue, I wanted to ensure that my card say Rescue-Enriched Air. Paid did not at all want to do that; they wanted to sell extra cards - issue my Rescue card, then sell me a Rescue-Nitrox. I called 1-800-Pay-padi, objected, requested they do it my way, and stayed on the phone with a Supervisor long enough that she gave in rather than hanging up on me.

Edited by DandyDon, 17 February 2008 - 03:53 PM.

[JimG]

On PADI rules - whatever happened to their suggestion that the final dive of the OW course could be on nitrox and count as the first of the two mandatory dives for the Nitrox course?

Depending on the OW course and how it was taught, it might not be too much of a leap to add a Nitrox dive or two in conjunction with the OW training. I do it fairly regularly, by offering a couple of Nitrox dives as "add on" experience dives, after the 4 OW dives are completed. Of course, my OW certification trip is a minimum of 7 dives, so that is not hard to do. Also, my OW class is about half a Nitrox class anyway, with discussion on Gas Laws, O2 tox, etc. My agency requires me to teach that material in the OW course, so I see no reason not to take advantage of the "captive" audience (and possibly generate interest in a follow-on course, i.e. "free marketing")

I wouldn't teach an OW course on nitrox, not one in the style of PADI courses anyway, as I think there's too much to take in all at once. But I do teach it, not as part of the AOW course but in parallel with it.

I have changed my thinking on this issue considerably in the last couple of years. About a year ago, I got curious and pulled some data on AOW and Nitrox certifications that I have issued in the last 10 years. What I found was that about 70% of the people who took one of the courses, took the other one within just a few months. I believe that was probably due to my policy of encouraging people to do Nitrox experience dives on their AOW certs and/or combine their Nitrox certification dives with an AOW certification. So starting this year, I am offering the certs in a combined format, with a pool session on buoyancy (similar to PADI's PPB, except taught with a DIR "spin").

My "thinking outside the box" approach on this has led me to believe that dive training needs to be "decompartmentalized". I believe that a smaller number of "quality" courses will serve divers better than the a'la carte approach that we have now (i.e. start with OW and then fill in the gaps with smaller "bites" from a bunch of shorter Specialty courses). My view on OW vs AOW vs Nitrox is that we really only need two courses, with the following learning outcomes:

• An entry-level (i.e. OW) course that teaches basic safety information about diving, and prepares divers to dive safely at depths to 60 feet, utilizing breathing gas that is appropriate to that depth range (i.e. air)
• A second-level course that drills down on buoyancy, propulsion, dive/gas planning (including air consumption calcs), and prepares divers to dive safely at depths to 100 feet, utilizing breathing gas that is appropriate to that depth range (i.e. Nitrox)

So that is how I have started structuring my courses. Of course I do not teach for a dive shop, so I have a little more freedom and flexibility to teach my courses the way I see fit. Not every instructor necessarily has that luxury.

I'll let you all know how it works out.

-JimG

Edited by JimG, 18 February 2008 - 06:22 AM.

[CaptSaaz]

My experience has shown me that the instructor matters way more than the certifying agency. My OW and AOW dive instructors are both hard core northeast wreck divers. They didn't skimp, they made sure you understood and could apply what you learned in class to the water. My Nitrox instructor ran a recompression chamber and went into detail and made sure you understood the concepts and could apply them real world.

I'm fairly critical about how I dive and have to hold my tongue when I see other divers and their lack of skills. I just feel bad for the reef.

Back to Bubs original question. I think the Nitrox course should be separate from AOW. They are not related and the nitrox course should be more than 1/2 hour class. More like a 1/2 day class with dives. And $100 is not expensive if the course is given correctly and given the depth it should.

[JimG]

I think the Nitrox course should be separate from AOW. They are not related and the nitrox course should be more than 1/2 hour class. More like a 1/2 day class with dives.

I disagree that they are "not related".

For most recreational divers, Nitrox is a much better choice of breathing gas for dives in the 60-100 foot range, and for a whole variety of reasons. AOW is the course where divers typically receive their first introduction to the planning issues and aspects of diving at those deeper depths. The choice of breathing gas is always a part of the overall dive plan, so why wouldn't we equip folks with the knowledge to use the gas that is probably the best overall choice for dives in the depth range that we are training them for?

I agree on the half-day thing, though. Watching a video and taking a quiz is simply not a "quality training experience", IMO. In fact, I would say that it is the mark of an instructor who either does not really understand Nitrox himself, or is simply too lazy to teach a proper course.

-JimG

[peterbj7]

My "thinking outside the box" approach on this has led me to believe that dive training needs to be "decompartmentalized". I believe that a smaller number of "quality" courses will serve divers better than the a'la carte approach that we have now (i.e. start with OW and then fill in the gaps with smaller "bites" from a bunch of shorter Specialty courses). My view on OW vs AOW vs Nitrox is that we really only need two courses, with the following learning outcomes:

• An entry-level (i.e. OW) course that teaches basic safety information about diving, and prepares divers to dive safely at depths to 60 feet, utilizing breathing gas that is appropriate to that depth range (i.e. air)
• A second-level course that drills down on buoyancy, propulsion, dive/gas planning (including air consumption calcs), and prepares divers to dive safely at depths to 100 feet, utilizing breathing gas that is appropriate to that depth range (i.e. Nitrox)

So that is how I have started structuring my courses. Of course I do not teach for a dive shop, so I have a little more freedom and flexibility to teach my courses the way I see fit. Not every instructor necessarily has that luxury

I envy you that freedom (I presume that's under YMCA?). When I said I thought the OW or AOW courses have enough in them already not to add a nitrox component I was working on the de minimis courses marketed by the leading commercial agencies. Given the opportunity I would actually prefer your approach. The sort of thing you could do in a dive club environment, which is one reason I'm considering reviving my BSAC membership/instructorship and forming my dive center into a BSAC club.