93 replies to this topic

[dlent]

http://www.inspirati...fatalities.com/

http://www.scubabruc...her-fatalities/

Read #12 in this liability waiver.
http://www.diveritee...ity_Release.pdf

I was thinking of getting a CCR until I read some of the liability waivers. I don't feel comfortable diving "experimental" equipment.

[WreckWench]

Peter your post was BRILLIANT! Why? Because it helps people to see where rebreathers have been coming from and how they can be used in different environments and the strategy that users have for when and where to dive RB. It also helps to serve the purpose of explaining how so many add'l elements in diving are incorporated into RB diving that one must indeed be well adept at multi-tasking, carrying multiple tanks/bottles and gas switching.

Now when they make the RB unit for dummies/blondes...thats when I'll be diving them!

[NJBerserker]

http://www.inspirati...fatalities.com/

http://www.scubabruc...her-fatalities/

Read #12 in this liability waiver.
http://www.diveritee...ity_Release.pdf

I was thinking of getting a CCR until I read some of the liability waivers. I don't feel comfortable diving "experimental" equipment.

Thank you for providing that information. I hope someone can fill in the gap as to why the electronics are listed as "experimental" in the waiver when the unit is available on the retail market. Is it because they're custom made/calibrated for the O2ptima or something that would make them special?

The one beef I have with the memorial website and the list of deaths is I feel that either directly or indirectly they give CCR and undeserved bad rap. Yes, people die on CCR. If you look at those lists many of those who died were ridiculously qualified and experienced divers. But is it the CCR unit that is to blame? People will die today crossing the street, from bee stings, car accidents, drowning, etc.. There is nothing we can do to stop it. People die on open circuit every year and have since the beginning. Many of whom were at a very elite level of diving. Yes there are heart attacks and deep water blackout and stuff, but lets face it, most fatalities according to the available reports are diver error. Our sport has risk associated with it and we have to decide how much we're willing to take on. Yet the truth remains that you or I may not resurface from our next dive. Will this stop me from diving. . . Hell No. I intend to get every ounce of joy out of my time on this planet and I will do what I need to in order to get it. Yet, I acknowledge and accept that reality everytime I'm about to roll over the side. I will also not dive if I have the slightest feeling that my safety might be compromised without any regret. What I'm saying is that as divers we need to acknowledge the serious risks involved and thus take responsibility for our own safety regardless of our choice of life support. Sorry for rambling, I'll put the soapbox away now.

Edited by NJBerserker, 24 July 2008 - 12:05 PM.

[netmage]

Diving a rb is not for everyone...... Peter and I have a few philosophical differences, suffice it to say, he probably won't convince me to change my mind, and I probably won't be able to change his - and thats ok.....

NJBerserker, you've definately hit the nail on the head... Walking across the street has risks, so does scuba diving, and yes, so does diving a rebreather. How you manage and prepare yourself for those risks ultimately determines your fate everyday. Do you look both ways before crossing the street, fasten your seatbelt, drive the speed limit, drink and drive, drink and dive, sniff the air in your tank before attaching the regulator, perform a prebreathe, calibrate in like conditions, call the dive at the first hint of anxiety/problem, carry adaquate bailout, or shrug it off...?

No amount of engineering can solve the human equation.... blondes will still be blondes... They will just come up with a blonder blonde... And I've had my moments.

-Tim

[ScubaDadMiami]

All good and true points. No question about it: When I train you, that means covering all of these issues. You do not finish the class until you can handle every possible failure that can happen. You have to demonstrate CCR skills covering the emergencies and failures before you are ready to start diving on your own. To do so, at any point in the dive, I will surprise you with an issue at the most inconvenient time, and you will have to figure out the problem and perform properly. Until you can do this, you are not ready even if you have done the required dives and time on the loop.

One other thing that relates to those that wish to dive in the shallows. The Optima (though this can also be done with some other rebreathers) is designed to allow the diver to dive without carrying a spare tank along on shallow dives. This is because the Optima can use larger tanks in the unit compared to most rebreathers, and an open circuit regulator (of various optional configurations) connects to one of the onboard tanks, allowing the diver to ascend on open circuit from this tank. Training still requires that you know how to use the separate tank carried for deeper diving even if you plan on only diving your Optima in shallow water. However, for those that are photographers and shallow divers, the basic configuration keeps the overall rig light and simple.

[scubafanatic]

....I'd like to see a showdown between Howard (aka 'Pollyanna') and Peter (aka 'Party Pooper') ......it's striking that we're seeing such diametrically opposed viewpoints..........based on Peter's post, I'd say my chances of going "RB" are pretty much ZERO.........I'd have to live and dive with tech divers frequently, live near the ocean for easy/cheap dive opportunities, and be wealthy or at the very least employed in the dive industry, and the dive industry to be the source of my income to even realistically venture down the "RB" road.

Karl

[peterbj7]

Peter and I have a few philosophical differences, suffice it to say, he probably won't convince me to change my mind, and I probably won't be able to change his - and thats ok.....

Tim, what do you see as those differences? I haven't seen anything posted by you that I disagreed with.....

[ScubaDadMiami]

I also don't see any disagreement between anything that Peter said and what I have said. (Well, I guess I diverge slightly because I dive my rebreather for all of my diving, even the shallow and non-tech dives, rather than going back and forth between open and closed circuit diving. This allows me to practice and keep up my skills.) Every risk mentioned is a real risk, and it can happen. However, you receive training regarding how to minimize each of the risks involved, and how to handle a situation that arises involving an emergency.

We are also in agreement about how great the Optima is. So, there would be no face off. We'd just go diving together if we were ever in the same place.

For those that want to learn more about the subject, there are good sources for information, many of which I have mentioned before. Additionally, I hold seminars that are free of charge for those wishing to find out more information about rebreather diving. (For those that wish to go beyond the information stage, I also offer the chance to try out a rebreather in a confined water setting for a slight charge for the tryout to cover costs of materials, pool rentals, etc.) The basic information gained from these public goodwill seminars helps divers learn about how to decide if a rebreather is the right tool for them.

[netmage]

I also don't see any disagreement between anything that Peter said and what I have said. (Well, I guess I diverge slightly because I dive my rebreather for all of my diving, even the shallow and non-tech dives, rather than going back and forth between open and closed circuit diving. This allows me to practice and keep up my skills.) Every risk mentioned is a real risk, and it can happen. However, you receive training regarding how to minimize each of the risks involved, and how to handle a situation that arises involving an emergency.

Let me start out with Peter, Howard and I have been fairly active in the few tech discussions, and we have some differing viewpoint across some of the threads, and there's nothing wrong with that... so I want to make sure I'm not spinning this into a I'm right scenerio...

I'm a firm beliviever in the concept of muscle memory and pattern behavior; probably became rooted from my exposure to GUE's philosophy. You know what you use, and you can more readily react and respond to the things you know. So changing around major pieces of kit every dive is kinda contrary to that. I also don't see a significant complexity being added to the dive by introducing the rebreather (compared to my normal 'dives'). If all my dives were 60' reef's or the Coppenhagen (the marquee 'bunny dive' in these parts), the rb would be drastic overkill... The typical plan is a deep wreck, ~110'-~150' followed by a 60' drift along the 3rd reef. Alot of folks pull out the doubles and a big tank w/ an h-valve or sling a deco bottle; I dive the rb w/ a bailout bottle. The kit I use isn't all that complex in the grand scheme of things, and a big reason in my moving to the rb is the ability to add conservatism at moderate depths easily as well as reduce my logistical nightmare. I show up to the boat w/ the rb and a single bailout bottle and I'm done for the day.... No swapping out tanks in 4' seas, running off for fills at lunch or between dives - I'm set.

-Tim

[NJBerserker]

I would just like to throw my .02 in and say to Netmage, ScubaDad, and Peter that I truly appreciate all of you input on this thread. I also find it comforting that there is slight disagreement once in a while on a few things as well as how your input is phrased. The way you separate the raw factual data and personal experience/practice helps and gives me tremendous respect for your opinions. All of the best lessons I have learned have come from more experienced divers. All of whom end their advice with "Don't let me tell you how to dive, that's just what I do. Find what works for you and use it". It helps when the more experienced on the board are eager to share and help without trying to force any proverbial "kool-aid" down your throat. Thanks guys.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I'm a firm beliviever in the concept of muscle memory and pattern behavior. . . . You know what you use, and you can more readily react and respond to the things you know. So changing around major pieces of kit every dive is kinda contrary to that.

You said it better than I ever did. I make very few changes to equipment for different dives so that I can maintain peak performance should an emergency arise. So, I don't go back and forth between CCR and open circuit. I always dive the CCR. It might give me the edge that will save my life someday.

I show up to the boat w/ the rb and a single bailout bottle and I'm done for the day.... No swapping out tanks in 4' seas, running off for fills at lunch or between dives - I'm set.

On the SD liveaboard trip we did in 2006, which was just for a few days, one person on the trip had a $300 bill from filling tanks. Mine was only nine bucks because I decided to get a fill when my tanks got down to 1,000 psi near the end of the trip. My emergency tanks almost never need filling. (Once a year, I boost the gas from tank to tank when it is time for visual inspection. I also practice drills, which will then require topping off tanks after.) I can dive over a few weekends on one set of tanks, which means that I only have to go to the dive shop after it is finally time to get a fill again.

Again, thise might not be an important reason for any particular individual to switch to a rebreather. However, it is surely just one of the benefits.

[peterbj7]

I don't go back and forth between CCR and open circuit

I understand and agree with this idea, but I simply can't dive closed all the time as I teach diving and I lead dives, and for most of that a CCR would be quite inappropriate. Even more than using a wing would be when teaching basic students.

But in my case economics also come in. Scrubber is difficult to import to Belize and horribly expensive, and the Inspiration is (IMO) a badly designed, badly made and poorly designed piece of equipment - I have owned four and all have proved unreliable and expensive to maintain. I now only have one, the other three having been stolen (at the same time by the same person), and that has had two complete electronics replacements, at $1300+ each time. When the second set failed after just 30 hours use I declined to pay yet again to have them replaced, so I'll probably sell the machine for scrap at some point. Whatever, I don't currently have the funds to buy two Optimas, but when I do have funds I will, so long as I can get a fast track to becoming an instructor on it.

That said, I did an expedition some time ago with one member of the group using an Ourorobos and that was an exceedingly impressive piece of kit. Obviously a great deal of thought had gone into even the tiniest aspects of design, and the quality of all components was evidently very high. No plastic mouldings here - everything was purpose-machined out of solid brass etc. I can't imagine a better CCR for extreme use. But it's very expensive and pretty big, and takes an enormous amount of scrubber, so it's hardly suitable for any sort of casual use. I've never dived alongside an Optima but I've seen them being made and I was aware of some of the design issues, and I can't imagine a better "amateur" CCR.

Edited by peterbj7, 25 July 2008 - 03:51 PM.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I can't imagine a better "amateur" CCR.

Such an insult after I have been so nice to you! That's all I need: ammunition for the Meg divers out there.

I know that a lot of people have this misimpression because the Optima is simple in design, compact, light on the back, and easy to maintain. However:

• Guess which CCR Tom Mount dives most of the time these days;
• Guess which unit the NSS-CDS Training Director dives almost exclusively;
• Guess which computer manufacturer has been awarded the contract by the U.S. Navy for use in their CCR training program.

There is more to the list than this.

There are plenty of exploration divers out there using the Optima. However, there are not many Europeans using the unit at this point because of the CE issue.

The 'Boros is well built. However, it is a huge beast that is not well suited for wreck penetration or cave diving. Almost the entire unit is proprietary. So, if something breaks, you have to ship it back to the factory and wait.

Many parts of the Optima are standard scuba parts and hoses. This makes travel much easier if something fails and needs repair on your trip. If I come to Belize, I'll bring my second unit (I own two so that I can use one for demos and students), and you will find out for yourself just what a joy the unit is.

[netmage]

Rumor is Mark's sentinel has spent more time back in the UK than in Florida waters...

[peterbj7]

• Guess which CCR Tom Mount dives most of the time these days;
• Guess which unit the NSS-CDS Training Director dives almost exclusively;
• Guess which computer manufacturer has been awarded the contract by the U.S. Navy for use in their CCR training program

When I last dived with Tom he was inseparable from his Meg, but that is over three years ago. How come he's deserted it?

One of the things that attracts me to the Optima IS the modularity and use of standard parts.

If you do come down this way I'd be very grateful for a chance to try it out.