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Your Octo - alternatives for your alternate


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#31 peterbj7

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 07:54 AM

SAC is how many psi per minute (I have seen it expressed as 'cubic feet' or 'pounds' as well in some references) you consume from your tank when just below the surface


Some people have it that SAC is always rate of pressure change (measured in psi or bar per minute), whilst RMV (respiratory minute volume) is rate of consumption (measured in cu.ft. or litres per minute). But usage has changed this, and the most useful definition of SAC now is that it is rate of consumption. It's not measured just below the surface but at some more substantial depth, with the result then extrapolated to the surface. Knowing that extrapolated surface figure you can then calculate nominal consumption at any depth.

Rate of pressure change clearly has no general application unless you know the volume of the tank it's been measured on, and this is where Americans have already shot themselves in the foot! Under the European system the actual volume of a tank is given in litres or cubic feet, so its capacity (the amount of gas at surface conditions compressed into it) is that volume multiplied by whatever pressure happens to be in the tank, in bar. So converting between volume and pressure is very easy, and SAC calculations are trivial.

Under the American system you don't know the volume of the tank. You're told how much gas can be compressed into it, but unless you know at what exact pressure that's measured you don't have a starting point for SAC calculations. This is the problem - you need to examine the tank markings to find the nominal rated pressure of the tank, on the assumption that that is the pressure at which its capacity was measured. If over-pressurisation is permitted (usually denoted by a + sign after the pressure number) then you need to understand whether it's the marked pressure you should use, or that pressure uplifted by the permitted over-pressurisation (usually 10%). Sadly, although there are norms there are also deviations from the norm, and just looking at the markings on a tank will not allow you to state definitively what the volume is. If you don't believe me try asking the tank manufacturers.

To me the US system is crazy, as it takes what is intrinsically simple and certain and makes it complicated and uncertain. I have lots of different sized tanks from lots of manufacturers, aluminum and steel, and the relationship between stated capacity and actual volume varies between them. Rather similar to the way lead acid auto batteries are marked. In Europe the following information appears on the battery label - number of cells, nominal voltage, maximum or starting current (measured in amps), and capacity (measured in ampere hours). In America so far as I can tell the last item, the capacity of the battery, never appears. When I want to fit a battery to a boat I clearly need to know two key things - whether it can deliver the required starting current, and how long I can leave running lights and auxilary equipment on and know that I'll be able to start the engine. I've bought lots of marine batteries in the USA from lots of manufacturers, and not one has given me that second vital piece of information. In Britain it's the first item given after the voltage, always.

Back to SAC. Once you know your gas consumption rate you can calculate how fast your tank pressure will drop at different point of a dive, crucial to gas planning. I also initially learned this at the Adv EANx level (in Florida), though as I began to understand the American tank measurement system I realised my instructor hadn't understood it himself and had actually mis-calculated tank volumes - he was wrong in what he thought was the pressure used by the manufacturer to calculate the capacity of the tank.

This of course won't be a problem for someone who buys their own tanks. Just make sure what the actual volume of each tank is and all subsequent SAC calculations are relatively easy.

#32 scubafanatic

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 09:30 AM

My computer is not air integrated nor will I ever have one. Granted their kind of cool, but must be backed up with an analog SPG which would be just another hose to deal with so I don't see the point. If the you-know-what hit's the fan the crucial information you need is your depth, bottom time, and gas remaining. If my computer fails I have all of those available with my watch and analog gauges.


Just for clarification, do you only have an SPG attached to your tank or do you also have a depth gauge attached? If you don't have both, which piece gives you your depth if your computer fails?


...I don't know NJBerserker's exact configuration, he likely either has a wrist mount depth guage or maybe a 2 gauge console with SPG and depth. My configuration is as follows:

clipped to left side waist D-ring: (1) Halcyon SPG
wearing on left wrist: (1) dive watch
(1) Cochran air-integrated 'intelligent wrist unit' GEMINI wireless computer (with wireless transmitter on left side HP 1st-stage port, mounted to left side BC hose)
clipped to right side waist D-ring: (1) Oceanic Datamax Pro Plus II air-integrated 'hosed' computer.

...my depth info is available on both dive computers.

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#33 Landlocked Dive Nut

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 02:13 PM

In what kind of specialty course or general diving class would I learn about this?


I learned in my OW SSI course, the formula is on the dive tables in the front of my log book. I have calculated my SAC after every dive (well, in the room at the end of the day) but I base it on my "average depth", since every dive I do is is multi-level. All I really use it for is to plan dive time, and to watch it improve as I got into better shape and improved my bouyancy! :wakawaka:
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#34 Capn Jack

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 04:04 PM

So...AL80's are really 77 cu feet, are there such variances with Steel 80's or AL100's (or other tanks...those are the ones I can think of right now)?

AL80's are one of the few exceptions (but there are others) - so, keep this link handy -

http://www.nitroxdiv.../Tank-Specs.htm

(Thanks again to jextract for this GREAT link)

Back on topic -

The thing I'm trying to understand, if I and others are so smitten with the long hose and necklace fashion statement, and we're obviously superior in looks and star power (right DG?), why hasn't it caught on? There's no reason you can't dive this way from the git-go. I understand the LDS reluctance to leave jacket BCs for Hog rigs, but the necklace secondary and long hose primary makes soooo much sense to me.

btw, I think the standard octo setup is safe and have no evidence of wide-spread deaths or dismemberment caused by its use by millions of divers world-wide.

Edited by Capn Jack, 02 August 2008 - 04:11 PM.

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#35 annasea

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 07:11 PM

<snip>

The thing I'm trying to understand, if I and others are so smitten with the long hose and necklace fashion statement, and we're obviously superior in looks and star power (right DG?), why hasn't it caught on? There's no reason you can't dive this way from the git-go. I understand the LDS reluctance to leave jacket BCs for Hog rigs, but the necklace secondary and long hose primary makes soooo much sense to me.<snip>


I reckon it's partly agency-dependent. Most people are trained by PADI and from what I recall from my own ill-fated PADI OW class, instructors do not teach the long hose set-up. I don't recall there being any mention of it in their manual either.

Fortunately, I had a fantastic, highly experienced NAUI OW instructor who put me on an octo necklace right away. The 5' hose came as soon as I bought my own reg. :teeth:










#36 ScubaTex

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 07:12 PM

Back to the original topic.

I've got an Air-2 alternate on my BC, but the few times I've used it, in training or practicing OOA situations, IT SUCKS. Or should I say it doesn't breathe as well as my primary, which guarantees my buddy and I will teminate the dive, no matter what. In the near future I plan on obtaining an octo, so I don't have to give up my primary.

And the alternate topic.

I have just added an SPG to my rig, and will be acquiring a wrist computer, as a back-up to my air integrated computer. I'm determined not to get stuck in the middle of Bali-Wakatobi-Raja Ampat, if my AI decides to crap out. I saw too many computers take a walk on my last trip, not to have a backup.

Bill

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#37 shadragon

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 07:24 PM

The thing I'm trying to understand, if I and others are so smitten with the long hose and necklace fashion statement, and we're obviously superior in looks and star power (right DG?), why hasn't it caught on? There's no reason you can't dive this way from the git-go. I understand the LDS reluctance to leave jacket BCs for Hog rigs, but the necklace secondary and long hose primary makes soooo much sense to me.

btw, I think the standard octo setup is safe and have no evidence of wide-spread deaths or dismemberment caused by its use by millions of divers world-wide.

It has not caught on because it is not promoted. It would probably not be appropriate to do so as 85% of all divers simply don't need it. Chances are if you have a long hose (LH) you have some form of technical diving quals under your belt. You have learned to operate as a team and in constrictive and/or overhead environments like wrecks, caves, ice etc. You need the LH as a tool to operate your team safely in case of failure because you typically cannot manoeuvrer side by side or make a straight ascent to the surface. It was borne of necessity.

The standard length octo is designed to get someone in an open water recreational profile to the surface safely. The octo is donated, you grab forearms and up you come. The LH is designed to be used let a technical diver sort out an issue @175' in a tunnel, ship corridor or what have you. Worse comes to worse and they can come out together. Give a LH to everyone with an OW qual and they will probably just get entangled or choke themselves on it. How many OW divers have you seen with an octo trailing behind them in the mud or sand? Now add 4'.

Thing is, they are both correct. They both do the job they are designed for in the realm they are supposed to operate in. There are many things on my list I would push for before lengthening the hose of an octo came up.
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#38 secretsea18

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 07:36 PM

The thing I'm trying to understand, if I and others are so smitten with the long hose and necklace fashion statement, and we're obviously superior in looks and star power (right DG?), why hasn't it caught on? There's no reason you can't dive this way from the git-go.
btw, I think the standard octo setup is safe and have no evidence of wide-spread deaths or dismemberment caused by its use by millions of divers world-wide.



Mark,
I really don't agree with how you all think those long hoses are "superior in looks".... I will refrain from my opinion of the appearance of that setup. Not only that but the darn (wanted to use a different word here) "necklace octo" would really get in the way of my camera and would probably get all mucked up with sand and silt. :teeth: (I surely would not want to be having to use that after some OOA diver ripped my primary regulator from my mouth.) And after all, what is more important than taking fabulous pictures of what there is in the ocean to see. As they say, "to each his own".....

For me, my primary hose is ... get this ... SHORTER than the standard length! Yep. Shorter. The dive shop had to order it for me. I am so happy to have gotten the special shorter primary regulator hose, because now I don't get a raw patch on my inner lip from the regulator pushing against my cheek, due to the hose being too long.

Mark, any chance of having any business up my way? Got some photos to show from the India trip to share. Since I can't post any photos in the posts (unless I am just too stoopid to figure it out, which is possible.)

Robin

#39 Capn Jack

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 07:55 PM

Mark,
I really don't agree with how you all think those long hoses are "superior in looks".... I will refrain from my opinion of the appearance of that setup. Not only that but the darn (wanted to use a different word here) "necklace octo" would really get in the way of my camera and would probably get all mucked up with sand and silt. :teeth: (I surely would not want to be having to use that after some OOA diver ripped my primary regulator from my mouth.) And after all, what is more important than taking fabulous pictures of what there is in the ocean to see. As they say, "to each his own".....

For me, my primary hose is ... get this ... SHORTER than the standard length! Yep. Shorter. The dive shop had to order it for me. I am so happy to have gotten the special shorter primary regulator hose, because now I don't get a raw patch on my inner lip from the regulator pushing against my cheek, due to the hose being too long.

Mark, any chance of having any business up my way? Got some photos to show from the India trip to share. Since I can't post any photos in the posts (unless I am just too stoopid to figure it out, which is possible.)

Robin

You didn't read my sentence correctly - I wrote it slow, knowing you might read it too fast!

The long hose is ugly. The people (like myself and DG) are superior in looks.

I do agree we all like different things - although I can't say mine has ever gotten in my way.

If your buoyancy is as good as your pix - how do you get your neck in muck?

No plans to be in NYC anytime soon - DC will be as close as I get - although if you want to take me to the Prime House, I might take the train up for a weekend.
No aquarium, no tank in a marine land, however spacious it may be, can begin to duplicate the conditions of the sea. And no dolphin who inhabits one of those aquariums or one of those marine lands can be considered normal.
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#40 NJBerserker

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 08:17 PM

Sorry this took me so long, diving all day and one splash tonight at the quarry. I truly love being able to post from my phone for this very reason. I dive a compact console with an SPG,depth gauge, and compass. I try not to wear too much on my wrists so as to better get my hands into lobster holes and its size streamlines very well. The long hose is badass and has practical application in rec. diving. If I have to assist an OOA and PANICKED diver I want them 5 feet away. Sorry guys, I will risk my life to save someone but I will not let them kill me in the process. I will not think twice about giving someone a light or reel to the dome and bringing them up unconscious if need be. my 5' hose gives me thw distance I need to safely assist anyone. Mark, we long hose divers are damn sexy and I love coming out of the water looking like something out of Soldier of Fortune. It may not be 'pretty' but it's damn cool...like lobsters and stuff like that.
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#41 Geek

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 04:01 AM

I am glad to see a discussion of the various octo configurations that hasn't degenerated into the usual rigid positions. I have always felt that configurations should be comfortable and appropriate for the type of diving, as opposed to the "always dive the same configuration" school of thought.

I've used all three of the choices for octos and here are my thoughts: 1) The standard PADI octo in the triangle is perfectly adequate for open water dives, particularly the warm water diving most divers start with. It is also easy to learn and cost effective. 2) The long hose, necklace octo, is the way to go for penetration diving, because you may not be able to exit side by side. The long hose would be inappropriate for most initial open water students, as it does take a little getting used to. I feel it is better to migrate to this once you have some experience. For the more demanding diving that calls for the long hose, you'll also want a higher performing octo than is sold to most recreational divers, so cost is an issue. 3) The Air 2 type of configuration is an interesting innovation. Unfortunately, the models produced have performance capabilities that are comparable to an inexpensive octo, and not to a high performance regulator. As a result, depending on what you are comparing it to, these can compare favorably or unfavorably.

If you are doing warm open water dives, and previously had an inexpensive octo, or this is your first rig, you might use the Air 2 style and enjoy the elimination of one hose, less weight, etc. and you won't experience a degradation in performance. No it won't kill you. :teeth:

If you have previously had experience where you are using high performance regulators for both second stages, you probably won't like the Air 2 style, because with most models you'll be taking a step down in performance. If you are doing cold water diving, and making more use of your inflator as a result, then you also may find the Air 2 style annoying for BC control as well.

I do have one additional observation that tends to really upset the anti-Air 2 crowd. The Air 2 (I won't extend this to all competitors.) is the best inflator I've ever used. I really like it as an inflator, as opposed to as a regulator. If it weren't for the cost, I'd say everyone ought to use one of these as a replacement inflator, not as a replacement octo, i.e. as a third second stage. Because of cost, I doubt you'll see many people with both a conventional octo and an Air 2, but if you are observant, you may see one or two around.

#42 secretsea18

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 07:33 AM

Mark,
I really don't agree with how you all think those long hoses are "superior in looks".... I will refrain from my opinion of the appearance of that setup. Not only that but the darn (wanted to use a different word here) "necklace octo" would really get in the way of my camera and would probably get all mucked up with sand and silt. :teeth: (I surely would not want to be having to use that after some OOA diver ripped my primary regulator from my mouth.) And after all, what is more important than taking fabulous pictures of what there is in the ocean to see. As they say, "to each his own".....

For me, my primary hose is ... get this ... SHORTER than the standard length! Yep. Shorter. The dive shop had to order it for me. I am so happy to have gotten the special shorter primary regulator hose, because now I don't get a raw patch on my inner lip from the regulator pushing against my cheek, due to the hose being too long.

Mark, any chance of having any business up my way? Got some photos to show from the India trip to share. Since I can't post any photos in the posts (unless I am just too stoopid to figure it out, which is possible.)

Robin

You didn't read my sentence correctly - I wrote it slow, knowing you might read it too fast!

The long hose is ugly. The people (like myself and DG) are superior in looks.

I do agree we all like different things - although I can't say mine has ever gotten in my way.

If your buoyancy is as good as your pix - how do you get your neck in muck?

No plans to be in NYC anytime soon - DC will be as close as I get - although if you want to take me to the Prime House, I might take the train up for a weekend.



Hi Mark,
I did read your post slowly, but totally missed your sarcasm with your lovely, beautiful, studly diver appearance :twist: I really thought you considered it looked studly, My bad....

There are plenty of sandy/silty places (muck sites {especially in Lembeh and Anilao} .... but look in the sand first!) where I am just about resting on the bottom, with my camera actually on the bottom to get the perspective up close to the bottom dwelling critter. And I say look before resting, those darn urchins and other stuff in the sand/bottom (like bobbit worms, inimicus scorpionfish and other poisonous stuff with spines love to be right where my knees want to be :lmao: ) {By the way, put really hot water on sea urchin spines to stop them from hurting, and fire urchins really do sting more than the plain black kind :lmao: } So I am right down there in the muck and I actually tuck my Airsource into my cummerbund to keep it from getting dredged in the sand and out of the way. If I could get rid of that too, I would, but I actually do need it for putting air into the BC when I'm waiting for the boat, or signaling the boat to find me to collect me.

Too bad you don't have any plans for NY anytime soon, and given the increase in prices I'm not sure dinner at Prime House is less than my monthly income, though I'd love to got there. I'm going to Lembeh Nov 27 for 9 days ... wanna come along, to dive and observe the proper technique for mucking around?

Robin

#43 secretsea18

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 07:35 AM

I reckon it's partly agency-dependent. Most people are trained by PADI and from what I recall from my own ill-fated PADI OW class, instructors do not teach the long hose set-up. I don't recall there being any mention of it in their manual either.

Fortunately, I had a fantastic, highly experienced NAUI OW instructor who put me on an octo necklace right away. The 5' hose came as soon as I bought my own reg. :teeth:



I am NAUI trained too, and there was nothing "octo necklace" ever discussed in the course or in its manuals. I believe it is more likely "instructor" dependent! :twist:

#44 SquattingRadishDM

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 09:01 AM

I only came across the long-hose/bungied 2nd configuration on my DM course, when talking about assessing/rescuing divers with different gear configurations. Then diving back in England I saw it more often. As far as I understand in the PADI world the setup and procedures for using that particular reg configuration are not explained in any great detail until the DSAT (tech) courses. (Although I expect most instructors mention it on Rescue/DM courses).

I currently still have a Primary/Octopus arrangement (ScubaPro MK16) but I plan on going the long-hose/bungied 2nd route in the future. Firstly because I plan on taking some tech courses in the future and it makes sense to get used to it, but also because of the OOA situations I've come across. The divers I've had to share air with have either calmly signalled to me and waited patiently for me to unclip my octo, or have tried to grab the reg straight out of my mouth. I feel that the Octopus setup lends itself fine to OW air shares with a calm diver but not so well with panicked ol' Mr McGrabby. The long-hose/bungied 2nd works for both situations (same procedure for the donor in either case)... although really the correct attitude, practice and remaining calm is the key to air shares no matter what the gear config.

Oh and a thread where SAC rate is mentioned is not complete without mentioning Rock Bottom aswell (the rest of the article is worth a read too). :teeth:
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#45 Geek

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 10:05 AM

I reckon it's partly agency-dependent. Most people are trained by PADI and from what I recall from my own ill-fated PADI OW class, instructors do not teach the long hose set-up. I don't recall there being any mention of it in their manual either.

Fortunately, I had a fantastic, highly experienced NAUI OW instructor who put me on an octo necklace right away. The 5' hose came as soon as I bought my own reg. :cool1:



I am NAUI trained too, and there was nothing "octo necklace" ever discussed in the course or in its manuals. I believe it is more likely "instructor" dependent! :D


My original open water course was NAUI as well. I don't think any agency teaches long hoses or necklaced octos from the start. (I don't consider DIR Fundamentals to be an introductory course.) If you run into it in an introductory course, it is due to the instructor, not the agency. It is something you will run into the minute you start to learn about penetration diving, where the long hose is likely to be needed.

In this area, most open water classes culminate out at Dutch Springs, and the local diving is mostly wreck diving, so you are likely to be exposed to the long hose/necklaced octo, even if you aren't taught that way, very early. There are just too may divers using it for you not to notice it.




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