113 replies to this topic

[shadragon]

I disagree...the long hose setup works great in both the technical and recreational realm. Even in open water it's nice to have a little distance between the two divers during the ascent, which should be a controlled ascent...not two people shooting to the surface.

Agreed it should be controlled. Thats the whole point of locking forearms (on the rec side) so they are forced come up together. It is easier to teach. If you put two freshly qualified OW divers on a long hose @60' and have them do a free ascent in a training exercise. I will guarantee 80% will have one go faster than the other and pull the octo out, or have a death grip on the hose to stay together. Their buoyancy control is typically insufficient at that stage. Add a real world panic OMG I am going to die situation and it is written in stone that they will get separated. Then you are in a CESA situation and the situation just got much worse.

I know what you are saying. Take two guys with 150 recreational dives and it will go like clockwork on the LH. However, you have to remember that the fellas might have as little as 6 dives.

[VADiver]

Sounds great to fail the student. But lets get what is going on during an open water class. You are doing 4 dives. Most of the time is spent at the platform doing skill drills like mask removal. Most people do their cert dives using rental equipment provided by the instructor's shop. And most are doing their ow dives very soon after doing their pool work. So the student does fine in such a short period of time and passes.

I agree...a 4 day course gets a person barely qualified to dive. IMO the basic certification course should be lengthened to get the students squared away with the fundamentals of diving…like proper equipment management.

Now flash forward to when the student is doing some real diving. Months have passed since they did their certification and the task loading of their first dives post cert. Yeah, they have some equipment dragging and probably shouldn't be out there. But don't blame the instructor for thinking they shouldn't have passed them. They did their jobs as the certification companies spell it out. Its then up to the student to take that freshly minted cert card and become a better diver just like we all had to do immediately after getting our drivers license for driving a car in the real world.

Once again you hit on a key point, "...did their jobs as the certification companies spell it out." Most agencies are in it for a profit (yes, I understand business and economics) so they set the bar lower to pass the most students (do they ever fail a student?). This is absurd in my opinion. Why not make the class a bit longer and raise the bar (i.e., standards)? And if someone fails the class, there is always the option to take it again or take a private class and work with the instructor until you get it right.

[pmarie]

VADiver
Most agencies are in it for a profit (yes, I understand business and economics) so they set the bar lower to pass the most students (do they ever fail a student?). This is absurd in my opinion. Why not make the class a bit longer and raise the bar (i.e., standards)? And if someone fails the class, there is always the option to take it again or take a private class and work with the instructor until you get it right.

The instructor that did my OW and AOW has not passed students, I wouldn't necessarily say "fail." He stated at the beginning of the class, and throughout the class, if anyone has any difficulties or requires more one on one he (or the divemaster during class) would work with them. The shop also stood behind that philosophy and even stated more than once that if they did not get the cert for any reason they would work with the student/s and their difficulties until they were comfortable and certified if their choice was to continue despite the difficulty.

[Capn Jack]

The instructor that did my OW and AOW has not passed students, I wouldn't necessarily say "fail." He stated at the beginning of the class, and throughout the class, if anyone has any difficulties or requires more one on one he (or the divemaster during class) would work with them. The shop also stood behind that philosophy and even stated more than once that if they did not get the cert for any reason they would work with the student/s and their difficulties until they were comfortable and certified if their choice was to continue despite the difficulty.

My LDS has a similar philosophy. No failures, but some people are offered additional training until they have successfully completed all of the skills. A few have taken him up on this, and spent several more weeks or even months before getting their card. Most just walk away, since their shortcomings are so systemic they realize there are underlying issues - claustrophobia, in-water "comfort", and make the right choice to pursue other hobbies.

Back on topic?

Someone mentioned the regs that have no UP or DOWN - that is they have a side exhaust - e.g. Mares Brigade Viper Octo. I frequently watch students put the octo into the OOA diver's mouth upside down, which for most, gives them a very wet breathing experience, usually precipitating a coughing spasm at best.

Thoughts?

Anyone have one? Care to share your experiences?

Edited by Capn Jack, 04 August 2008 - 05:52 AM.

[shadragon]

My LDS has a similar philosophy. There is no fail, but there is no pass until you can confidently demonstrate they have the required skill. They will work one-on-one as required to get them up to speed. I think that is the right attitude to take as a lot of people learn at a different pace. Got to have patience as an Instructor.

[Dive_Girl]

As for my config...primary reg on the 7' hose, backup bungeed around the neck--for all my diving. As fpr DG's questions, my secondary is a full sized reg. I'll be upgrading it to a SCUBA Pro S600 in the future.

Would that be the reg you graciously allowed me to dive in NC....

As for not passing student divers, I did not pass VADiver in the ice diving specialty...

Back on topic -

The thing I'm trying to understand, if I and others are so smitten with the long hose and necklace fashion statement, and we're obviously superior in looks and star power (right DG?), why hasn't it caught on? There's no reason you can't dive this way from the git-go. I understand the LDS reluctance to leave jacket BCs for Hog rigs, but the necklace secondary and long hose primary makes soooo much sense to me.

Well of course! A set-up as worn by a PADI instructor... There is no reason why different regulator configurations cannot or should not be discussed in open water. I find this topic of informational conversation similar to the conversation of wetsuit vs drysuit or back inflation BC vs vest BC vs backplate/wing set-ups, etc. which should all be discussed during open water class time.

When asked by a diver how much money should be spent on an alternate regulator, here's my response. It is most likley you'll end up with the alternate in your own mouth, so how much would you spend on yourself?

[BubbleBoy]

My standard setup is now a 7’ yellow primary hose and a 3’ black hose for my second reg. I carry the second on a bungee necklace which you have to cut off if you want to get it (hey everybody look over here, it’s a knife fight). Both second stages are identical. I also carry a third reg on my pony bottle.

I hate the inconvenience of the 7’ hose, but, I think I would feel much differently about that if I ever had occasion to use it for its intended purpose.

I do lighten up on this setup and go with an inflator second and shorter primary reg hose when I’m diving easy high vis sub 30 ft. open water conditions (basically anything that is 2-3 kicks to get safely back to the surface). For longer recovery paths, I think I would be bothered by having to remove my reg everytime I wanted to release gas from my BCD. I primarily use my inflator vent for that.

Edited by BubbleBoy, 04 August 2008 - 11:54 AM.

[scubafanatic]

The instructor that did my OW and AOW has not passed students, I wouldn't necessarily say "fail." He stated at the beginning of the class, and throughout the class, if anyone has any difficulties or requires more one on one he (or the divemaster during class) would work with them. The shop also stood behind that philosophy and even stated more than once that if they did not get the cert for any reason they would work with the student/s and their difficulties until they were comfortable and certified if their choice was to continue despite the difficulty.

My LDS has a similar philosophy. No failures, but some people are offered additional training until they have successfully completed all of the skills. A few have taken him up on this, and spent several more weeks or even months before getting their card. Most just walk away, since their shortcomings are so systemic they realize there are underlying issues - claustrophobia, in-water "comfort", and make the right choice to pursue other hobbies.

Back on topic?

Someone mentioned the regs that have no UP or DOWN - that is they have a side exhaust - e.g. Mares Brigade Viper Octo. I frequently watch students put the octo into the OOA diver's mouth upside down, which for most, gives them a very wet breathing experience, usually precipitating a coughing spasm at best.

Thoughts?

Anyone have one? Care to share your experiences?

.....well, for my recreational reg sets, I'm running my 'primaries' (with Seacures) on standard 32"-ish length hoses.....and my 'octos' are all flat-puck-shaped APEKS Egress omni-directional units on 4' hoses....I've found these 'octos' @ 4' are sufficient since they work in any orientation and don't 'lose' useful length by having to be subjected to any awkward 'S-bends' in order to be right side up for the OOA diver. I like their compact/low-profile design as well.

Karl

[Bubble2Bubble]

Capt Jack

For assisting in OW confined water classes, I conform to what the students have, which is a standard octo attached in the "triangle".

I use my octo as my primary on every third dive. I'm not going to hand over a reg that I don't know is worthy of scuba diving... especially in and emergency. The length of hose is mute.... know your octo and hand it over in confidendence Buddy.

Mike

[Geek]

The downside I personally have in going to a 7' long hose on my primary is the loss of the in line swivel which I find to be a nice feature on my reg. But the issue of an O-O-A diver going after your primary is a real one, and knowing where your octo is in that case without having to think about it is important in any configuration.

With an air2 my standard procedure is to pass my primary reg to my buddy anyway. I also know where my air2 is at all times. I practice breathing off of it (and maintaining bouyancy) on every single dive, so it's not that big of an issue.

Using an Air2 is what my LDS teaches exclusively. All of their rental gear uses air2s. SO this is how I learned how to do it. They see this as the trend in rec diving, and with the traditional octo going away.

I am rather surprised at this. There has been so much negative BS about Air 2 from technical divers that I would think the trend would now be away from these. I see fewer of them locally than I did a couple years ago. Does this LDS do any technical instruction?

[georoc01]

The downside I personally have in going to a 7' long hose on my primary is the loss of the in line swivel which I find to be a nice feature on my reg. But the issue of an O-O-A diver going after your primary is a real one, and knowing where your octo is in that case without having to think about it is important in any configuration.

With an air2 my standard procedure is to pass my primary reg to my buddy anyway. I also know where my air2 is at all times. I practice breathing off of it (and maintaining bouyancy) on every single dive, so it's not that big of an issue.

Using an Air2 is what my LDS teaches exclusively. All of their rental gear uses air2s. SO this is how I learned how to do it. They see this as the trend in rec diving, and with the traditional octo going away.

I am rather surprised at this. There has been so much negative BS about Air 2 from technical divers that I would think the trend would now be away from these. I see fewer of them locally than I did a couple years ago. Does this LDS do any technical instruction?

Yes, they teach the TDI courses. But I would say its a very small portion of their business. Maybe 1-2 classes a year, vs multiple open water classes every weekend year round, and classes during the week. They are one of the largest PADI instruction programs in the country.

[hambergler]

I discussed this topic with an instructor at my LDS today, asking him about hose configurations and such. His opinion was that, under MOST recreational circumstances, if you've been properly trained, taking/providing an alternate shouldn't be that dramatic; however, that being said, and considering the emergency nature of the situation ("oh holy CRAP, I'm OUT OF AIR!!--wait, there's some air RIGHT THERE...GRAB IT!!"), it doesn't hurt to be prepared. He said that he figured that anybody with Rescue or above training would know how to handle the situation and take control of it during or after the initial panic of the regulator exchange (voluntary or not, stiff-arms and evasion techniques as necessary). After that, you keep the was-OOA diver at bay (with extreme prejudice if necessary) and end the dive immediately, hopefully with that person in-tow and breathing (if not, well...c'est la vie). In tech or wreck/cave situations, things (needless to say) get more complicated.

His preferred setup, and one I've seen fairly regularly, is to have the normal primary second stage configuration we all know and love. The octopus second stage is placed in the general vicinity of the heart/left upper chest, usually with a quick-disconnect attachment to the upper D ring of the BC; it is therefore in the preferred triangle, and is also quite conveniently placed for emergency use by either donor or recipient.

[BubbleBoy]

Agreed it should be controlled. Thats the whole point of locking forearms (on the rec side) so they are forced come up together. It is easier to teach. If you put two freshly qualified OW divers on a long hose @60' and have them do a free ascent in a training exercise. I will guarantee 80% will have one go faster than the other and pull the octo out, or have a death grip on the hose to stay together.

I know this is serious talk, but, this one got me laughing. I got this image of one diver rising to the surface with his BCD inflated to the max while his buddy is hanging below 30 lbs negative on the long hose like a hooked tuna. I guess that would be a moment for any instructor to remember. God help them both if the donee below lets go of the reg during the ascent.

Edited by BubbleBoy, 06 August 2008 - 01:41 PM.

[Bubble2Bubble]

BB

I got this image of one diver rising to the surface with his BCD inflated to the max while his buddy is hanging below 30 lbs negative on the long hose like a hooked tuna.

I noticed WW carries her octo on a neckless, I'm guessing that she has had her primary pulled from her a few times before..makes sense in a way because once your primary is snatched from you from a OOA diver, its one easy step to put your octo in the mouth. I like the Idea of a Air 2 aka octo on your oral inflater, but they did seem to get alot of bad press at the time I was considering buying one, but now that I am looking for smaller and more compact gear configs the better they look.


Mike

[mountainminnow]

I'm a new diver and was trained with the b/c integrated back up reg. I have been diving with mostly "old school" divers and went with a 6' yellow octo with the swivel and breath rightside or upside down reg when I purchase my own equiptment. I have it on a quick release that is also connected to a retractor that will reach my mouth. I would rather grab that myself than find the b/c type floating somewhere over my shoulder. And the OOA diver may just take the octo instead of taking mine....Hopefully.

I love all the info floating around on this site.

Daniel